Why did God create the universe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: June 27th, 2021, 6:14 pm
Atla wrote: June 27th, 2021, 9:36 amThe evidence for [electrons and other unobservable objects] comes from the observed behaviour of things. They don't themselves have to be visible objects, maybe they aren't objects at all.
So, you admit that scientific realism (a philosophical position worthy of discussion on a philosophical board) is suspect and you refuse to defend it. Yet, somehow I think that what comes below will deny the consequences of such a philosophical admission.
Certain knowledge is humanly impossible, some degree of faith is always involved. The evidence-based position is a way of thinking that tries to match the observed world perfectly (as good as humanly possible), so this position probably requires the least amount of faith, it's most likely to be correct.
So, you claim that the evidence-based position is "most likely to be correct" but you have no evidence to support that claim. This is what we call an incoherent system of beliefs.
You don't know what coherence means then. No way of thinking can fully be justified, but they can be internally consistent. For example believing that you can fully justify your way of thinking, when you actually can't, is inconsistent.

As for which way of thinking is more likely correct, we use experiments to try to stablish that, for example by standing in front of a train, and the evidence-based view will suggest to step aside.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Zosimus
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Atla wrote: June 27th, 2021, 11:51 pmYou don't know what coherence means then. No way of thinking can fully be justified, but they can be internally consistent. For example believing that you can fully justify your way of thinking, when you actually can't, is inconsistent.

As for which way of thinking is more likely correct, we use experiments to try to stablish that, for example by standing in front of a train, and the evidence-based view will suggest to step aside.
The stated position around here is "We need evidence to know things. But, we don't need evidence to know that we need evidence to know things."

How much more incoherent could it be?

Nor is your "Some guy stood in front of a train, he died, so evidence-based views are superior" argument particularly convincing. Here's a simple situation. We get on a bus and survey the people on the bus. We find four women, all born in February, and all of them are going to Bristol. Which of the following inferences is justified?

1. If a new person gets on the bus, that person will be a woman.
2. If a new person gets on the bus, that person will have been born in February.
3. If a new person gets on the bus, that person will be going to Bristol.

Now, most people will say that only conclusion 3 is justified. But why aren't conclusions 1 and 2 justified? What rule could we formulate to determine when an inductive-drawn conclusion is valid and when it is not? And don't say "it's obvious when it is and when it isn't" because there are millions of people who think, "The stock market went up last year. The stock market is going up this year. The stock market will go up again next year." Then you get a sudden drop in stock market values like Black Monday or US 2008, and suddenly all that wonderful pattern of highly evidenced justification is shown to be a bunch of bull.
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: June 28th, 2021, 7:34 am The stated position around here is "We need evidence to know things.
...
Around where? Certain knowledge is impossible, "we know things" just means "as far as we can tell, but we can always turn out to be wrong". No evidence can produce certain knowledge.
You'll have to do better than that, these are rather weak strawmen.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: June 28th, 2021, 7:34 am Nor is your "Some guy stood in front of a train, he died, so evidence-based views are superior" argument particularly convincing. Here's a simple situation. We get on a bus and survey the people on the bus. We find four women, all born in February, and all of them are going to Bristol. Which of the following inferences is justified?

1. If a new person gets on the bus, that person will be a woman.
2. If a new person gets on the bus, that person will have been born in February.
3. If a new person gets on the bus, that person will be going to Bristol.

Now, most people will say that only conclusion 3 is justified. But why aren't conclusions 1 and 2 justified? What rule could we formulate to determine when an inductive-drawn conclusion is valid and when it is not? And don't say "it's obvious when it is and when it isn't" because there are millions of people who think, "The stock market went up last year. The stock market is going up this year. The stock market will go up again next year." Then you get a sudden drop in stock market values like Black Monday or US 2008, and suddenly all that wonderful pattern of highly evidenced justification is shown to be a bunch of bull.
None of the three are justified by evidence. Do you understand what you are talking about?
True philosophy points to the Moon
AverageBozo
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

The evidence is that the bus goes to Bristol, however the evidence is weak if the bus makes other stops along the way.
Zosimus
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Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Atla wrote: June 28th, 2021, 9:31 amAround where? Certain knowledge is impossible, "we know things" just means "as far as we can tell, but we can always turn out to be wrong". No evidence can produce certain knowledge.
You'll have to do better than that, these are rather weak strawmen.
I like the resounding way that you say "Certain knowledge is impossible." It sounds as though you are certain that you cannot be certain of anything. Perhaps you could explain to me exactly how you manage to say blatantly self contradictory statements without even a trace of irony.
Zosimus
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

AverageBozo wrote: June 28th, 2021, 10:43 am The evidence is that the bus goes to Bristol, however the evidence is weak if the bus makes other stops along the way.
Yes, exactly my point. People will tend to think it's a reasonable belief that other people getting on will be going to Bristol but people will not believe that other people getting on will automatically be women born in February. But the question is: What criterion can we use to determine when an inference is justified vs when it's unjustified?

Why is a man born in Africa who has only seen black people unjustified in thinking that the entire universe is populated with black homo sapiens but scientists who study the half-life of uranium in Africa justified in thinking that the half-life of uranium will be the same clear on the other side of the universe a million years from now?
AverageBozo
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

Zosimus wrote: June 28th, 2021, 5:00 pm
AverageBozo wrote: June 28th, 2021, 10:43 am The evidence is that the bus goes to Bristol, however the evidence is weak if the bus makes other stops along the way.
Yes, exactly my point. People will tend to think it's a reasonable belief that other people getting on will be going to Bristol but people will not believe that other people getting on will automatically be women born in February. But the question is: What criterion can we use to determine when an inference is justified vs when it's unjustified?

Why is a man born in Africa who has only seen black people unjustified in thinking that the entire universe is populated with black homo sapiens but scientists who study the half-life of uranium in Africa justified in thinking that the half-life of uranium will be the same clear on the other side of the universe a million years from now?
It can be said that the African is unjustified in his belief because white homo sapiens have been observed living outside of Africa.

However, the evidence available to the man in Africa leads him to believe his claim is justified. He believes the evidence for his belief is sufficient.

It can be said that the half-life of uranium is the same everywhere by making its specific half-life a characteristic of uranium or an integral part of the definition of uranium.

However, there are different isotopes of uranium that have (my memory of high school chem is exceedingly vague) a variety of physical properties; and if half-life is a physical property then it would not be justified to claim that the half-life of uranium is the same everywhere.

In either instance, the problem of evidence of evidence and the belief in that evidence arise in vexation.
AverageBozo
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

I noticed that in my discussion above I did not address what criterion we can use to determine whether an inference is justified or not.

The belief that a claim is justified or not can only be informed by the best guess available.

In the end there can be no absolute certainty that a claim is justified.

What counts is to approximate certainty as closely as possible.

But there is no way to know with certainty what the best guess is.

Perhaps determining what best means would go a ways toward easing the pain of attempting to make that guess.

Yes, there was a time when most people’s best guess was that the Earth was flat.
Zosimus
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

AverageBozo wrote: June 28th, 2021, 6:54 pm I noticed that in my discussion above I did not address what criterion we can use to determine whether an inference is justified or not.

The belief that a claim is justified or not can only be informed by the best guess available.

In the end there can be no absolute certainty that a claim is justified.

What counts is to approximate certainty as closely as possible.

But there is no way to know with certainty what the best guess is.

Perhaps determining what best means would go a ways toward easing the pain of attempting to make that guess.

Yes, there was a time when most people’s best guess was that the Earth was flat.
You said, "...there is no way to know with certainty..."

But, can I not know with certainty that the square root of 2 is an irrational number or that the square of a hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides?

I think what you are really trying to say is that reliance on evidence can never lead to any kind of certainty.
Atla
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: June 28th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Atla wrote: June 28th, 2021, 9:31 amAround where? Certain knowledge is impossible, "we know things" just means "as far as we can tell, but we can always turn out to be wrong". No evidence can produce certain knowledge.
You'll have to do better than that, these are rather weak strawmen.
I like the resounding way that you say "Certain knowledge is impossible." It sounds as though you are certain that you cannot be certain of anything. Perhaps you could explain to me exactly how you manage to say blatantly self contradictory statements without even a trace of irony.
Because I assume that the other person is competent enough to understand that "certain knowledge is impossible" is not a certain statement.
True philosophy points to the Moon
AverageBozo
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Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

Zosimus wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:32 am
AverageBozo wrote: June 28th, 2021, 6:54 pm I noticed that in my discussion above I did not address what criterion we can use to determine whether an inference is justified or not.

The belief that a claim is justified or not can only be informed by the best guess available.

In the end there can be no absolute certainty that a claim is justified.

What counts is to approximate certainty as closely as possible.

But there is no way to know with certainty what the best guess is.

Perhaps determining what best means would go a ways toward easing the pain of attempting to make that guess.

Yes, there was a time when most people’s best guess was that the Earth was flat.
You said, "...there is no way to know with certainty..."

But, can I not know with certainty that the square root of 2 is an irrational number or that the square of a hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides?

I think what you are really trying to say is that reliance on evidence can never lead to any kind of certainty.
Certainly :wink:
AverageBozo
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Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

Zosimus wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:32 am
But, can I not know with certainty that the square root of 2 is an irrational number or that the square of a hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides?
Are these inferences or mathematical equivalents?

Can you with certainty that mathematics is justified?
AverageBozo
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Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

Zosimus wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:32 am
But, can I not know with certainty that the square root of 2 is an irrational number or that the square of a hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides?
Are these inferences or mathematical equivalents?

Can you know with certainty that mathematics is justified?
Zosimus
Posts: 38
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Atla wrote: June 29th, 2021, 10:19 am
Zosimus wrote: June 28th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Atla wrote: June 28th, 2021, 9:31 amAround where? Certain knowledge is impossible, "we know things" just means "as far as we can tell, but we can always turn out to be wrong". No evidence can produce certain knowledge.
You'll have to do better than that, these are rather weak strawmen.
I like the resounding way that you say "Certain knowledge is impossible." It sounds as though you are certain that you cannot be certain of anything. Perhaps you could explain to me exactly how you manage to say blatantly self contradictory statements without even a trace of irony.
Because I assume that the other person is competent enough to understand that "certain knowledge is impossible" is not a certain statement.
So, you want me to believe that certain knowledge is impossible even though you're far from certain that is the case?
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