Why did God create the universe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Nick_A
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Nick_A »

Tegularius wrote: June 6th, 2021, 5:20 am
Nick_A wrote: June 5th, 2021, 11:15 pm
gad-fly wrote: June 5th, 2021, 2:18 pm I must admit being somewhat disappointed at the response so far. i am still expecting more salient and intuitive indications on Why. Whether God exists or whether there was creation are moot points which I am inclined to evade at this juncture.

Nor am I prepared to accept the position not to ask because I am not qualified to question the motive of a higher being, arising from my inferiority complex and fear of regicide. He created because it is not around? The statement is not better than unsaid. I am of the opinion that in this forum you are entitled to show and express what your intelligence allows and encourages, and in the process attain a high level of fulfilment. I have done my part. It is now up to you.
Understanding why the ONE and creation are a necessity is not wanted. People prefer to believe either that it arose from nothing or that it always was and will be without purpose.

Can humanity exist without objective meaning people feel as the questions of the heart and destroy itself. The state doesn't supply a person's need for meaning. Who or shat will?


“Man, the bravest of animals, and the one most accustomed to suffering, does not repudiate suffering as such; he desires it, he even seeks it out, provided he is shown a meaning for it, a purpose of suffering. The meaninglessness of suffering, not suffering itself, was the curse that lay over mankind so far.” (On the Genealogy of Morals, Friedrich Nietzsche)
Without understanding the purpose of creation, Humanity must blame someone like the Jews or the Armenians for example. A scapegoat offers the reason for human suffering. But what happens when we run out of scapegoats?

Your question of the why of creation is essential in the technological world but how many are capable of contemplating it in the presence of what is called educated denial? All this means is that humanity will strive to adjust to a meaningless existence. I don't believe it can so war is inevitable when we run out of scapegoats.
If one could supply meaning by a heaped up set of pure speculation then purpose should never have been a problem in the first place including the incredible nonsense you write as in...
Without understanding the purpose of creation, Humanity must blame someone like the Jews or the Armenians for example.
Also, a much, much greater probability of what could make war inevitable may be the future lack of resources which would certainly cause a great deal of geopolitical friction and not anything as stupid as thinking that it's inevitable because we failed to rinse out the meaning or purpose of existence. No war in history ever started because that.

The meaning of existence is to keep existing which for many is a lot harder than it looks.
The educated deniers deny by speculation. The open minded make efforts to consciously "know Thyself" so as to verify the human condition as it manifests within them.

Educated denial requires the acceptance that "The meaning of existence is to keep existing which for many is a lot harder than it looks."

Kill or be killed. It is the way of the jungle. Can the educated deniers evolve beyond their animal nature to question if objective human meaning is different from animal meaning? Not now, Denial is too strong, but in the future it may be possible
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
AverageBozo
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

CIN wrote: June 5th, 2021, 7:02 pm
AverageBozo wrote: June 5th, 2021, 6:47 pm So, to answer the question of the second wording, there could be no other primary reason than to satisfy curiosity—curiosity that would entertain or amuse God if such a creation could be accomplished by God.

Whatever other purpose might be brought forward—to create humans, or to create humans in God’s image, or to give humans dominion over all other creations, or… or… or…or for any other reason at all—God’s curiosity would be served foremost.
Since God is ex hypothesi omniscient, he has no curiosity that needs satisfying. He didn't need to create the universe in order to answer some question or other - he already knew all the answers to all the questions that could be asked. So that couldn't be his reason.
Sorry. I forgot the omniscience angle.
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Thomyum2
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Thomyum2 »

gad-fly wrote: June 5th, 2021, 2:18 pm I must admit being somewhat disappointed at the response so far. i am still expecting more salient and intuitive indications on Why. Whether God exists or whether there was creation are moot points which I am inclined to evade at this juncture.

Nor am I prepared to accept the position not to ask because I am not qualified to question the motive of a higher being, arising from my inferiority complex and fear of regicide. He created because it is not around? The statement is not better than unsaid. I am of the opinion that in this forum you are entitled to show and express what your intelligence allows and encourages, and in the process attain a high level of fulfilment. I have done my part. It is now up to you.
In philosophy, the answer to a question will of course depend on the premises one holds, and the variety of responses you've received here are pretty much what one would expect with such a broad and open-ended premises that you've offered - simply that God exists and created the universe. These are ideas that, if not defined a little more clearly, will mean a lot of different things to different people.

Since you've referenced the Bible in your OP, I can give you my own thoughts which are largely rooted in Christian tradition and the premises therein. The short answer that's usually given to this question, and that is supported in scripture, is that God created the universe for His greater glory. On the surface that's a simple and rather unsatisfactory answer, but with an understanding of who God is, what the nature of God is, it makes more sense. Thomas Aquinas put it very well I think, saying that "the very nature of God is goodness.... Hence, what belongs to the essence of goodness befits God. But it belongs to the essence of goodness to communicate itself to others.... Hence it belongs to the essence of the highest good to communicate itself in the highest manner to the creature." So as I see it, if we take the premise God is all that is good - the essence of all Love, Truth, Beauty, even Life itself - God's creation of the universe is an expression and a manifestation of that goodness, and to be a recipient of it. My belief is that Man holds a unique place in creation in that Man was made to enter into a relationship with God - that we were created 'in His image' means to me that we join in creation - we are like God in that we have the ability to love, to seek truth, to create things of beauty, and inasmuch as we do this we are in a sense 'co-creators' with God in bringing this goodness into existence - that is how we 'glorify' God.

In your OP, you suggested that God created the universe because he enjoyed doing it. And while there's a kernel of truth in this, insofar as the experience of goodness is enjoyable, I think this wording trivializes it (blasphemy, they would have called it in the old days :)) and makes it sound more like it was a form of entertainment or pleasure-seeking. We understand that although we do get enjoyment from experience of giving or receiving love, we don't love for that purpose - we love because it is naturally expression of our nature, a gift that we give freely and not done out of the desire or expectation of enjoyment. So I would rather say that He created the universe because it is of the very nature Him to do so, and the universe reflects who He is.

Of course there's a lot more that can be said about all of this but maybe this is a start. There have already been several thousands of years of thought and discussion behind these very broad questions so it's a lot to try and cover in a forum thread.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
AverageBozo
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

Again supposing that there was a God before there was a universe and that the universe was created by God, the omniscient God probably built the universe for laughs. Even with knowledge of the punchline, a funny story can be humorous.
Nick_A
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Nick_A »

The Ten Great Questions of the Heart...... from Jacob Needleman
February 14, 2016
1. Are we alone in the Universe? (Does God Exist?)

2. Who am I?

3. Why do we live?

4. Why do we suffer?

5. Is death the end?

6. Why is there evil?

7. What can we hope for?

8. What can we know?

9. What ought we to do?

10. How should we live?

Who can answer these questions for the next generation so these answers satisfy the needs of the heart for "meaning" and the intellect for the purpose of our universe? When we deny our source, what takes its place; Communism and the worship of the great beast and society itself? Not all that satisfying for natural man so without the experience of objective human meaning as opposed to attempts at indoctrination, Man is left to celebrating drugs and war. The educated deniers will have won but what will they have won?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Tegularius
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Tegularius »

Nick_A wrote: June 6th, 2021, 6:33 am
Tegularius wrote: June 6th, 2021, 5:20 am
Nick_A wrote: June 5th, 2021, 11:15 pm
gad-fly wrote: June 5th, 2021, 2:18 pm I must admit being somewhat disappointed at the response so far. i am still expecting more salient and intuitive indications on Why. Whether God exists or whether there was creation are moot points which I am inclined to evade at this juncture.

Nor am I prepared to accept the position not to ask because I am not qualified to question the motive of a higher being, arising from my inferiority complex and fear of regicide. He created because it is not around? The statement is not better than unsaid. I am of the opinion that in this forum you are entitled to show and express what your intelligence allows and encourages, and in the process attain a high level of fulfilment. I have done my part. It is now up to you.
Understanding why the ONE and creation are a necessity is not wanted. People prefer to believe either that it arose from nothing or that it always was and will be without purpose.

Can humanity exist without objective meaning people feel as the questions of the heart and destroy itself. The state doesn't supply a person's need for meaning. Who or shat will?


“Man, the bravest of animals, and the one most accustomed to suffering, does not repudiate suffering as such; he desires it, he even seeks it out, provided he is shown a meaning for it, a purpose of suffering. The meaninglessness of suffering, not suffering itself, was the curse that lay over mankind so far.” (On the Genealogy of Morals, Friedrich Nietzsche)
Without understanding the purpose of creation, Humanity must blame someone like the Jews or the Armenians for example. A scapegoat offers the reason for human suffering. But what happens when we run out of scapegoats?

Your question of the why of creation is essential in the technological world but how many are capable of contemplating it in the presence of what is called educated denial? All this means is that humanity will strive to adjust to a meaningless existence. I don't believe it can so war is inevitable when we run out of scapegoats.
If one could supply meaning by a heaped up set of pure speculation then purpose should never have been a problem in the first place including the incredible nonsense you write as in...
Without understanding the purpose of creation, Humanity must blame someone like the Jews or the Armenians for example.
Also, a much, much greater probability of what could make war inevitable may be the future lack of resources which would certainly cause a great deal of geopolitical friction and not anything as stupid as thinking that it's inevitable because we failed to rinse out the meaning or purpose of existence. No war in history ever started because that.

The meaning of existence is to keep existing which for many is a lot harder than it looks.
The educated deniers deny by speculation. The open minded make efforts to consciously "know Thyself" so as to verify the human condition as it manifests within them.

Educated denial requires the acceptance that "The meaning of existence is to keep existing which for many is a lot harder than it looks."

Kill or be killed. It is the way of the jungle. Can the educated deniers evolve beyond their animal nature to question if objective human meaning is different from animal meaning? Not now, Denial is too strong, but in the future it may be possible
It's easy to just spout out words without having a clue as to what is meant thereby. What does it mean to know thyself or oneself? I asked this question before and not just a few times. But of course there is no real response by anyone because no-one has a clue. If to take it precisely as written then it's the most mundane of concepts; merely implying the necessity to understand one's weaknesses and strengths, one's character in short which can be very different between individuals, as demonstrated in the differences between us. The conclusion being it elicits no universal insight of any kind. Even Nietzsche had very little regard for it.

Since you're such an astute practitioner and preacher of wisdom why don't you tell us what it means without being vague about it!
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Nick_A
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Nick_A »

Tegularius
It's easy to just spout out words without having a clue as to what is meant thereby. What does it mean to know thyself or oneself? I asked this question before and not just a few times. But of course there is no real response by anyone because no-one has a clue. If to take it precisely as written then it's the most mundane of concepts; merely implying the necessity to understand one's weaknesses and strengths, one's character in short which can be very different between individuals, as demonstrated in the differences between us. The conclusion being it elicits no universal insight of any kind. Even Nietzsche had very little regard for it.

Since you're such an astute practitioner and preacher of wisdom why don't you tell us what it means without being vague about it!
To knw thyself, to have the experience of oneself, is not introspection. The goal isn't change, but only to experience what is there. If you seriously want a deeper description of what it means to "Know Thyself", read this article: If I write something in a post, it probably will just confuse you

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Abstracts/Needleman_93.html
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Steve3007
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Steve3007 »

Since the concept of a God who created the universe was created by analogy with humans and other animals, I'd say that He created the universe for the same reason that I'm in the process of creating a large intricate mosaic tiled garden table and the same reason why my pet rabbit does binkies. Sitting in the garden on a sunny evening with a glass of wine slowly creating something is very pleasant. I expect God probably had a glass of wine too.
Fanman
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Fanman »

Why did God create the universe?

Could there be a more problematic question? Let’s assume that there is a God capable of doing such a thing. Could we possibly fathom the motivations of such a being? Without a religious framework, the question is impossible to answer. To answer this question, we have to bring the concept down to our level of understanding and reasoning. If on some level. God has a mind which is similar to ours - I would say that he possibly did it for several reasons. Enjoyment, desire, curiosity, creativity etc. But these are just the kind of reasons that I can fathom. If there is a God, he/she/it could have created the universe for an infinite number of reasons, given that it is an infinite being - with an infinite mind. Fundamentally, this question is impossible to answer. And assuming a lot of things, even if by chance someone manages to happen upon the correct answers. How would anyone ever know that it was?
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
gad-fly
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by gad-fly »

Thomyum2 wrote: June 6th, 2021, 11:26 am
In philosophy, the answer to a question will of course depend on the premises one holds, and the variety of responses you've received here are pretty much what one would expect with such a broad and open-ended premises that you've offered - simply that God exists and created the universe. These are ideas that, if not defined a little more clearly, will mean a lot of different things to different people.

Since you've referenced the Bible in your OP, I can give you my own thoughts which are largely rooted in Christian tradition and the premises therein. The short answer that's usually given to this question, and that is supported in scripture, is that God created the universe for His greater glory. On the surface that's a simple and rather unsatisfactory answer, but with an understanding of who God is, what the nature of God is, it makes more sense. Thomas Aquinas put it very well I think, saying that "the very nature of God is goodness.... Hence, what belongs to the essence of goodness befits God. But it belongs to the essence of goodness to communicate itself to others.... Hence it belongs to the essence of the highest good to communicate itself in the highest manner to the creature." So as I see it, if we take the premise God is all that is good - the essence of all Love, Truth, Beauty, even Life itself - God's creation of the universe is an expression and a manifestation of that goodness, and to be a recipient of it. My belief is that Man holds a unique place in creation in that Man was made to enter into a relationship with God - that we were created 'in His image' means to me that we join in creation - we are like God in that we have the ability to love, to seek truth, to create things of beauty, and inasmuch as we do this we are in a sense 'co-creators' with God in bringing this goodness into existence - that is how we 'glorify' God.

In your OP, you suggested that God created the universe because he enjoyed doing it. And while there's a kernel of truth in this, insofar as the experience of goodness is enjoyable, I think this wording trivializes it . . . So I would rather say that He created the universe because it is of the very nature Him to do so, and the universe reflects who He is.
Yours is among the best replies I have received so far.

The answer to a question depends on its premises. Agreed. I could have posed the question as: "Assuming God has created the universe, why did he do it?" On the other hand, if I ask why, the premises should be taken a priori. I am in no position to defend the premises even if some has found it offensive. I can also understand why some are awe-struck when we ponder on the motivation of a super being. "You can never understand him, or Big Brother, or Dear Leader. Who do you think you are?" Fine. But I can try.

"The short answer in scripture is that God created the universe for his greater glory." If so, my question is reductant, though I would be grateful if you can enlighten me in this respect by quoting the Bible. The purpose of creation is vain self-glorification? Surely it must be more noble than that.
Would he be frustrated if some of us, at least, fail to glorify him?

My suggestion to God's enjoyment as the reason trivializes it? I don't think so. human creates toy and keep pets. Why not God for the same reason? At this juncture le me bring in the reason of curiosity and interest in the product of creation. Loneliness and companionship may be among the reasons too. Imagine God being all alone for ever. Companionship would conform with your suggestion that God need to communicate goodness and love.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a fun-loving, humanitarian, and sensual creator, with the capacity to be sad, disappointed, and challenged, rather than a stone wall?
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Consul
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Consul »

gad-fly wrote: June 4th, 2021, 11:33 pmI am inspired to suggest that God create the universe because he enjoy doing it.
According to classical theism, God is a perfect being; and a perfect being doesn't need to do anything in order to feel joy. A perfect divine being cannot have any unsatisfied desires, because "he" has always been in a state of maximal bliss; so no additional enjoyment through divine action is possible.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Consul »

Recommended reading:

R. T. Mullins: The Problem of Arbitrary Creation for Impassibility

QUOTE>
Abstract: There is a particular question that has plagued classical Christian theism over the centuries. What reason could God have for creating a universe? In this article, I shall articulate the unique claims of classical theism that other rival models of God lack. I shall argue that classical theism’s unique commitments entail that God cannot create the universe for a reason. Thus, any nonclassical model of God can claim to have the advantage over classical theism because they can affirm that God creates the universe for a reason. In Section 1, I shall articulate classical theism. In Section 2, I shall lay the groundwork for the debate by explaining what a reason is and what a creation is. In Section 3, I shall argue that a classical theist cannot affirm that God creates the universe for a reason, thus conflicting with God’s perfect rationality.
<QUOTE
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Steve3007
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Steve3007 »

Fanman wrote:Could there be a more problematic question? Let’s assume that there is a God capable of doing such a thing. Could we possibly fathom the motivations of such a being? Without a religious framework, the question is impossible to answer. To answer this question, we have to bring the concept down to our level of understanding and reasoning. If on some level. God has a mind which is similar to ours - I would say that he possibly did it for several reasons. Enjoyment, desire, curiosity, creativity etc. But these are just the kind of reasons that I can fathom. If there is a God, he/she/it could have created the universe for an infinite number of reasons, given that it is an infinite being - with an infinite mind. Fundamentally, this question is impossible to answer. And assuming a lot of things, even if by chance someone manages to happen upon the correct answers. How would anyone ever know that it was?
Consul wrote:According to classical theism, God is a perfect being; and a perfect being doesn't need to do anything in order to feel joy. A perfect divine being cannot have any unsatisfied desires, because "he" has always been in a state of maximal bliss; so no additional enjoyment through divine action is possible.
And so, it comes down to the question of why the concept of God was created. If we create It by analogy with humans, whereby God has human-like characteristics but on a much bigger scale, then we speculate about His reasons for creating the universe by analogy with the reasons why we create things ourselves. If we create It as an objectification of the inherently subjective concept of perfection, as a more abstract and less human concept, then we stick to the "it is not for us mortals to guess His divine purpose" kind of line. Different people believe in God for different reasons, and therefore define It in different ways.
Fanman
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Fanman »

Steve3007,
And so, it comes down to the question of why the concept of God was created. If we create It by analogy with humans, whereby God has human-like characteristics but on a much bigger scale, then we speculate about His reasons for creating the universe by analogy with the reasons why we create things ourselves. If we create It as an objectification of the inherently subjective concept of perfection, as a more abstract and less human concept, then we stick to the "it is not for us mortals to guess His divine purpose" kind of line. Different people believe in God for different reasons, and therefore define It in different ways.
Precisely. Do you think there is possibly a middle ground, where objectification and anthropomorphism can meet without compromise or is the perception of God in those terms mutually exclusive?
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Steve3007
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Steve3007 »

Fanman wrote:Precisely. Do you think there is possibly a middle ground, where objectification and anthropomorphism can meet without compromise or is the perception of God in those terms mutually exclusive?
I don't know, but on the face of it, you'd think they'd be mutually exclusive wouldn't you? As evidenced by Consul's comments. But I just don't think most people concern themselves with that. It's always struck me that for the vast majority of religious believers (the ones who don't bother much with philosophical discussions!) these classic questions about the nature of omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence are beside the point. The arguments in which Man says "Aha! ..." and God says "Oh dear, I hadn't thought of that" and promptly disappears in a puff of logic are irrelevant and antithetical to the whole concept of religious faith. Discussions like this one are fun, but not relevant to the day-to-day business of most people's religious faith. At least, that's true of the few religious people I've known (mostly elderly relatives, now deceased.)
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