Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by gad-fly »

"What evidence is there to support the idea that evidence is important? It just seems to me that this is an argument that the non-believer's sense of what is obvious and right is valid whereas a believer's sense of what is obvious and right is invalid."

I am not in the position of judge or preacher to defend or argue against the above point. Nor am I to compare which is more important. Suffice to say that I believe both are important.

As motion, faith involves a leap. Whether the leap is justified or not is another question which I shall not parley. Evidence is more substantive, to involve hearsay, observation, and experience. Faith and evidence may breed from the same soil, to the effect that they may mutually strengthen each other. What I have said applies to marriage as well. How do you survive a marriage if you have no faith in your spouse? And yet, would you take his every word without reasonable doubt?

Some says there is evidence of God's existence, though not empirical evidence. I am not sure about that. 'Empirical' means derived from experience rather than by logic from first principles. Evidence apparently can arise from experience. The problem is that evidence is seldom beyond reasonable doubt. A further problem is that reasonable doubt depends on the beholder.

Take a scenario. You throw ten thousand eggs at a brick wall, and expect them all to be smashed. To your surprise, one remains on the grass. Now there is evidence, beyond reasonable doubt. It is a miracle. Who could have brought it? Certainly not you, but rather, some super being called God. Not only that, the decision on, who that lucky egg is, is his. More than that, the surviving egg is the only one to tell the story. Are you still not convinced, with that only story being around? I would, until I hear another argument, enlightening me with the law of probability, chance, uncertainty, unpredictability, or whatever. Who would you believe?

I don't know about you, but guess I would feel like Adam in the Garden of Eden, after that fateful bite on the apple. I would accept being driven away, while remaining skeptic on what I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY GOD AND THAT SNAKE. Fine, if you spit it out and declare you have not swallowed.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: June 12th, 2021, 3:28 pm "What evidence is there to support the idea that evidence is important? It just seems to me that this is an argument that the non-believer's sense of what is obvious and right is valid whereas a believer's sense of what is obvious and right is invalid."

I am not in the position of judge or preacher to defend or argue against the above point. Nor am I to compare which is more important. Suffice to say that I believe both are important.

As motion, faith involves a leap. Whether the leap is justified or not is another question which I shall not parley. Evidence is more substantive, to involve hearsay, observation, and experience. Faith and evidence may breed from the same soil, to the effect that they may mutually strengthen each other. What I have said applies to marriage as well. How do you survive a marriage if you have no faith in your spouse? And yet, would you take his every word without reasonable doubt?

Some says there is evidence of God's existence, though not empirical evidence. I am not sure about that. 'Empirical' means derived from experience rather than by logic from first principles. Evidence apparently can arise from experience. The problem is that evidence is seldom beyond reasonable doubt. A further problem is that reasonable doubt depends on the beholder.

Take a scenario. You throw ten thousand eggs at a brick wall, and expect them all to be smashed. To your surprise, one remains on the grass. Now there is evidence, beyond reasonable doubt. It is a miracle. Who could have brought it? Certainly not you, but rather, some super being called God. Not only that, the decision on, who that lucky egg is, is his. More than that, the surviving egg is the only one to tell the story. Are you still not convinced, with that only story being around? I would, until I hear another argument, enlightening me with the law of probability, chance, uncertainty, unpredictability, or whatever. Who would you believe?

I don't know about you, but guess I would feel like Adam in the Garden of Eden, after that fateful bite on the apple. I would accept being driven away, while remaining skeptic on what I HAVE BEEN TOLD BY GOD AND THAT SNAKE. Fine, if you spit it out and declare you have not swallowed.
The answer to your question is about experience.
As long as you live in never helps that you believe. You can believe that you car has petrol in it, but I will not get you fer if it does not.
You might beleive you can get a job regardless of having being qualified for it, but you will remain unemployed as a brain surgeon if you do not know how to fix brains. My can have faith that the fridge is full of food and that the cupboards are overflowing with packets of pasta. When you open the cupboards to find them empty - THAT is evidence.
A small child learns all this, and a life time of experience tells then the usefulness of evidence. This sort of argument is INDUCTIVE.
It lies at the heart of our existential being, at the heart of science.
There are reasons that a egg might survive - and it is not a miracle.
You can survive and thrive with ZERO faith and ZERO believe. Try to exist without evidence. You cannot even live without gaining evidence unless you are blind, and deaf. Gathering evidence is fundemental. It requires no effort.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 12th, 2021, 5:50 pm You can survive and thrive with ZERO faith and ZERO believe. Try to exist without evidence. You cannot even live without gaining evidence unless you are blind, and deaf. Gathering evidence is fundemental. It requires no effort.
We believe in a lot of things that are based on faith (in the sense of hope and belief) such as the person who gave us poor service was just a bad salesman and not just a racist. These are useful delusions that help us get on with our life and the pursuit of happiness. What is wrong with that? It is far healthier than medication and therapy to treat depression and anxiety.
"The Serpent did not lie."
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by gad-fly »

It appears some has mixed up faith in religion with belief in the physical domain. "faith that there is food in the fridge" is not faith. More correct to say: an impression. Someone providing poor service leaves you a bad impression. Your experience of his poor service would deter, dissuade, or discourage you next time. This is your learning process.

faith is intrinsic, in the heart. Your lover is faithful to you? that has nothing to do with her turning up late.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by LuckyR »

Faith is why you believe in the metaphysical, evidence is why you believe the physical. Since gods are metaphysical, belief in them is an example of faith. Folks can try to retroengineer "evidence" of the metaphysical, but it is just smoke and mirrors.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Sculptor1 »

AmericanKestrel wrote: June 12th, 2021, 7:30 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 12th, 2021, 5:50 pm You can survive and thrive with ZERO faith and ZERO believe. Try to exist without evidence. You cannot even live without gaining evidence unless you are blind, and deaf. Gathering evidence is fundemental. It requires no effort.
We believe in a lot of things that are based on faith (in the sense of hope and belief) such as the person who gave us poor service was just a bad salesman and not just a racist. These are useful delusions that help us get on with our life and the pursuit of happiness. What is wrong with that? It is far healthier than medication and therapy to treat depression and anxiety.
You may not talk for others. Who is "WE"? Is that the Royal "we"? I believe nothing. But always seek to know. I take nothing for granted, but things not know a I never take unreservedly. I have no faith, though I can temporarily give trust, contingent on success.
I have no need nor want for any medication.
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 380
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by mystery »

For sure the matrix and blue pill is a better choice for some, as long as they are or become happy/satisfied what else can be achieved in life.

A person shall choose to believe and imagine how I like the world and life to be, and with faith, it shall be so. This is a choice. It is possible to convince ourselves to believe something/anything. faith.

Trust but verify is a useful idea and in the evidence camp. I live in that place and have learned the hard way on many topics that trust but verify does serve me better than faith.

At the same time, I have seen the magic of faith heal people's minds that could not be reached by philosophy and training.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 13th, 2021, 4:23 am
AmericanKestrel wrote: June 12th, 2021, 7:30 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 12th, 2021, 5:50 pm You can survive and thrive with ZERO faith and ZERO believe. Try to exist without evidence. You cannot even live without gaining evidence unless you are blind, and deaf. Gathering evidence is fundemental. It requires no effort.
We believe in a lot of things that are based on faith (in the sense of hope and belief) such as the person who gave us poor service was just a bad salesman and not just a racist. These are useful delusions that help us get on with our life and the pursuit of happiness. What is wrong with that? It is far healthier than medication and therapy to treat depression and anxiety.
You may not talk for others. Who is "WE"? Is that the Royal "we"? I believe nothing. But always seek to know. I take nothing for granted, but things not know a I never take unreservedly. I have no faith, though I can temporarily give trust, contingent on success.
I have no need nor want for any medication.
The royal “we” is about as royal as the “you”. We are all individuals and have different struggles and different capacities. Faith and hope are necessities for those who need the. Who “you” to dictate what “they” need? What is importantbis how one can cope without losing their mental health. If faith and prayers get them there , good for them.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by AmericanKestrel »

gad-fly wrote: June 12th, 2021, 10:03 pm It appears some has mixed up faith in religion with belief in the physical domain. "faith that there is food in the fridge" is not faith. More correct to say: an impression. Someone providing poor service leaves you a bad impression. Your experience of his poor service would deter, dissuade, or discourage you next time. This is your learning process.

faith is intrinsic, in the heart. Your lover is faithful to you? that has nothing to do with her turning up late.
You may choose to define with some kind of precision that you believe exists between faith and belief. But it is an illusion nevertheless. Science only knows what is true, for now. It does not admit to how much it does not know yet.
Bad service may just be an impression on you. It can leave a deep hurt in someone else who is not so privileged, who has already been taught too many lessons. All that matters is how he deals with a hurt that is real to him, that you dont experience. He chooses to believe, have faith, trust his senses, which provides him with what he needs to go on.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Sculptor1 »

AmericanKestrel wrote: June 13th, 2021, 6:18 am
Sculptor1 wrote: June 13th, 2021, 4:23 am
AmericanKestrel wrote: June 12th, 2021, 7:30 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 12th, 2021, 5:50 pm You can survive and thrive with ZERO faith and ZERO believe. Try to exist without evidence. You cannot even live without gaining evidence unless you are blind, and deaf. Gathering evidence is fundemental. It requires no effort.
We believe in a lot of things that are based on faith (in the sense of hope and belief) such as the person who gave us poor service was just a bad salesman and not just a racist. These are useful delusions that help us get on with our life and the pursuit of happiness. What is wrong with that? It is far healthier than medication and therapy to treat depression and anxiety.
You may not talk for others. Who is "WE"? Is that the Royal "we"? I believe nothing. But always seek to know. I take nothing for granted, but things not know a I never take unreservedly. I have no faith, though I can temporarily give trust, contingent on success.
I have no need nor want for any medication.
The royal “we” is about as royal as the “you”. We are all individuals and have different struggles and different capacities. Faith and hope are necessities for those who need the. Who “you” to dictate what “they” need? What is importantbis how one can cope without losing their mental health. If faith and prayers get them there , good for them.
For any and all absolute statement is it a fact that they are refuted by a single example. I told you I had not need for faith and hope and I meant it. That means, simply that they are no necessities in any sense. Even you can learn to live without them and live your life more truthfully.
If people cannot cope without prayers then more fool them. I prefer to live more authentically rather than live a lie and fool myself of a futre state or reward.
gad-fly
Posts: 1133
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by gad-fly »

LuckyR wrote: June 13th, 2021, 3:21 am Faith is why you believe in the metaphysical, evidence is why you believe the physical. Since gods are metaphysical, belief in them is an example of faith. Folks can try to retroengineer "evidence" of the metaphysical, but it is just smoke and mirrors.
In dictionary;
Faith is strong or unshakable belief in something especially without proof or evidence.
Evidence is ground for belief or disbelief, data on which to base truth.

Please note "especially" in Faith. A miracle, which may lead to sainthood, can be taken as evidence or not. It is up to you or the Catholic Church.
AverageBozo
Posts: 502
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by AverageBozo »

In religions, anything can be evidence if it is believed to be so.

But evidence that evidence is important sounds circular to me. And without clear criteria, “important” is vague, to say the least.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8232
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 12th, 2021, 5:50 pm You can survive and thrive with ZERO faith and ZERO belief.
I think that's only possible if you confine yourself to a knowledge pool that is much smaller than you would prefer. Perhaps so small that teaspoons start to look enormous? If I understand your view of belief correctly, then it applies where there is no actual fact- or evidence-based knowledge. And this applies to most things, if we apply it strictly.


LuckyR wrote: June 13th, 2021, 3:21 am Faith is why you believe in the metaphysical, evidence is why you believe the physical. Since gods are metaphysical, belief in them is an example of faith. Folks can try to retroengineer "evidence" of the metaphysical, but it is just smoke and mirrors.
Well put. I see nothing to dispute with this.



Personally, I have no problem admitting to faith, and to belief also. The alternative, as I see it, is to claim knowledge and certainty that I don't have, to assuage my inner insecurity. Or I can look the world in the face and accept that there is much I do not KNOW, and that I probably will never know, and do what we all must do, in practice, in the real world: I guess. Some of it is educated guesswork, but a guess is a guess. I have no problem with that. It seems to bother quite a few other people, though, judging from their posted objections.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Skyblack
Posts: 119
Joined: June 12th, 2021, 11:56 am

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Skyblack »

What evidence is there to support the idea that evidence is important?
There is none. The question of evidence only comes in if one is looking for evidence.

The general premise it seems is, rationality seeks evidence.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 13th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 12th, 2021, 5:50 pm You can survive and thrive with ZERO faith and ZERO belief.
I think that's only possible if you confine yourself to a knowledge pool that is much smaller than you would prefer. Perhaps so small that teaspoons start to look enormous? If I understand your view of belief correctly, then it applies where there is no actual fact- or evidence-based knowledge. And this applies to most things, if we apply it strictly.
I can hold knowledge as a skeptic without failing my discrimination and resorting to faith.
LuckyR wrote: June 13th, 2021, 3:21 am Faith is why you believe in the metaphysical, evidence is why you believe the physical. Since gods are metaphysical, belief in them is an example of faith. Folks can try to retroengineer "evidence" of the metaphysical, but it is just smoke and mirrors.
Well put. I see nothing to dispute with this.



Personally, I have no problem admitting to faith, and to belief also. The alternative, as I see it, is to claim knowledge and certainty that I don't have, to assuage my inner insecurity. Or I can look the world in the face and accept that there is much I do not KNOW, and that I probably will never know, and do what we all must do, in practice, in the real world: I guess. Some of it is educated guesswork, but a guess is a guess. I have no problem with that. It seems to bother quite a few other people, though, judging from their posted objections.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021