Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Thomyum2
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Thomyum2 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:50 pm
Thomyum2 wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:40 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:24 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 14th, 2021, 8:31 am The amount of certain knowledge around is pretty limited: I exist; Objective Reality exists, and I am all or part of it. Each of us can say this and no more. There is no other Objective Knowledge that we can knowingly (i.e. not by accident or coincidence) possess.
chewybrian wrote: June 14th, 2021, 9:38 am This should be a sticky at the top of every page. This is the foundation of real philosophy, and the only statement we can make while also claiming to know it is true. Everything else is argument about beliefs. Some have more foundation than others, but all are beliefs, no matter how we state them or how strongly we believe.
Thanks. It remains a mystery to me that this is not much more widely known and accepted. Perhaps it's just too scary to admit so clearly how little we really know?
It's a very thought-provoking idea here.
It is? In what way do you think it's thought-provoking? And do you have any thoughts as to why it "is not much more widely known and accepted"? I'm not challenging what you've written, but only looking for some expansion of your opinions.
It's thought-provoking to me because it makes me ask what it really means to know or be certain about something and I've never been able to quite answer this for myself. There have been plenty of times in my life when I've felt absolutely certain about something only to have been proven wrong.

I guess this has led me to feel that when we say such things as 'I know' or 'I am certain' or 'it is well known', we're expressing something more about our internal state of confidence with the subject being discussed, or our perceived ability to demonstrate knowledge through the performance of certain tasks (e.g. the ability to answer certain questions on a test in accordance with a certain set of right or wrong answers) than we are about the actual truth or falsehood of the information itself.

It probably deserves its own separate thread but I'm not sure where I'd start the conversation.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
Steve3007
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Steve3007 »

If we're talking about what's important to us personally, as a means towards the end of some form of personal fulfilment or happiness then it's like asking "what do you like?". Obviously it's entirely subjective. To some it might be evidence, to some others it might be faith and to some others it might be cake.

So the title of the topic, instead of "Faith or evidence?" could as easily be "Cake or death?"
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by gad-fly »

Steve3007 wrote: June 15th, 2021, 10:30 am
gad-fly wrote:"What evidence is there to support the idea that evidence is important? It just seems to me that this is an argument that the non-believer's sense of what is obvious and right is valid whereas a believer's sense of what is obvious and right is invalid."

I am not in the position of judge or preacher to defend or argue against the above point. Nor am I to compare which is more important. Suffice to say that I believe both are important.
Important for what purpose?

Saying "X is important" or "X is not important" without mentioning the goal to which it is important doesn't make much sense to me.
I am not about to mince words. Importance is consideration and comparison. More important between two or several? Going forward, assess the degree of importance. Important is an adjective, like 'good' and 'pretty'. It is not a goal. Ask that mirror on the wall.

Miracle is rare outcome. Say someone has terminal cancer as advised by medical opinion. Out of odds, he recovers. That is a miracle. It does not matter how the cause can or cannot be traced. Belief or disbelief has nothing to do with it.

Evidence is factual, true, not evasive, and undeniable. It is what the court applies to define guilty or not guilty. Not equated with "I think . . ."

Faith, like trust and love, is disposition, something at your disposal. You have faith in some politician? Fine, you vote for him. The same with who you are going to marry, o.k.? Faith is also subject to degree variation, and change with time. Hence no single party would be voted into power forever. Sorry, you have to go. Guess you know why.
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by LuckyR »

Thomyum2 wrote: June 15th, 2021, 10:24 am
LuckyR wrote: June 15th, 2021, 1:33 am
gad-fly wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:08 pm
LuckyR wrote: June 13th, 2021, 10:28 pm

Sure it can, or might not be. Thus in the traditional use of the word evidence, it's not.
Miracle is rare fortuitous outcome. Rare as in one in a hundred, one in a thousand, and so on. Miracle is often assigned as religious, though not necessarily so. As outcome of event, miracle is evidence, and evidence is fact or truth, not just belief or opinion. That cannot be denied. The same applies to all other outcomes.

But evidence of what? That is subject to interpretation. Some may say miracle indicates God's existence, or his benevolent salvation. Some would give it the benefit of the doubt, and some may even applies the statistical approach to declare otherwise, which is also fine.
When a one in 100 million chance event happens (one in 100 million tries), that is expected, not a miracle.
A miracle is an impossible event that happens, i.e. something which we previously believed couldn't have happened, or couldn't have happened without divine intervention. So whether or not an individual believes that something is a miracle will depend on what they believe is possible.

It's similar to evidence in that whether or not any given piece of evidence is convincing or explains something is going to vary from person to person. No two judges or jurors are necessarily going to see things the same way, even if they're looking at the very same set of evidence.

In this scientific age that we live in, I think we often don't believe in miracles because we tend to operate on the assumption that everything may eventually be explained by natural laws, and so such events are seen as not yet understood rather than as impossibilities.
Uummm... impossible events can't happen (by definition) thus if they do, they are not examples of miracles, they are examples of mislabelling.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Steve3007 »

gad-fly wrote:I am not about to mince words. Importance is consideration and comparison. More important between two or several? Going forward, assess the degree of importance. Important is an adjective, like 'good' and 'pretty'. It is not a goal. Ask that mirror on the wall.
I didn't say that importance is a goal. I said that it's meaningless to say "X is important" without indicating what goal X is deemed to be important to. Hence, the question of which is more important to us - faith or evidence - depends on our goals.
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

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gad-fly wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:08 pm
You didn't respond to my post above but it was serious.

If evidence isn't important, then why would you be asking for evidence for why evidence is important?
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

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LuckyR wrote: June 16th, 2021, 2:05 am
Thomyum2 wrote: June 15th, 2021, 10:24 am A miracle is an impossible event that happens, i.e. something which we previously believed couldn't have happened, or couldn't have happened without divine intervention. So whether or not an individual believes that something is a miracle will depend on what they believe is possible.

It's similar to evidence in that whether or not any given piece of evidence is convincing or explains something is going to vary from person to person. No two judges or jurors are necessarily going to see things the same way, even if they're looking at the very same set of evidence.

In this scientific age that we live in, I think we often don't believe in miracles because we tend to operate on the assumption that everything may eventually be explained by natural laws, and so such events are seen as not yet understood rather than as impossibilities.
Uummm... impossible events can't happen (by definition) thus if they do, they are not examples of miracles, they are examples of mislabelling.
They're no longer impossibilities once they happen, of course - I suppose I should have phrased it 'something we would previously have considered impossible' but thought that would be clear from the context of what I'd said earlier in the post.

My main point was to suggest that we see such events as new challenges for science to explain (even before they've been explained) rather than as miracles, which wouldn't ever be explainable in those terms. Inasmuch as we hold the assumption that science can potentially explain everything, we will dismiss miracles as impossible.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 16th, 2021, 8:37 am
gad-fly wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:08 pm
You didn't respond to my post above but it was serious.

If evidence isn't important, then why would you be asking for evidence for why evidence is important?
Which post?

Evidence is important depending on where, when, and how it applies. Being important is not the reason to ask a question. There are many. Evidence is not that important for some with fervent faith, who can hold conviction in the absence of evidence.

Evidence is not cure all medicine. Your life would be tortuous if the only thing you seek is medicine.
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by gad-fly »

Steve3007 wrote: June 16th, 2021, 6:47 am
gad-fly wrote:I am not about to mince words. Importance is consideration and comparison. More important between two or several? Going forward, assess the degree of importance. Important is an adjective, like 'good' and 'pretty'. It is not a goal. Ask that mirror on the wall.
I didn't say that importance is a goal. I said that it's meaningless to say "X is important" without indicating what goal X is deemed to be important to. Hence, the question of which is more important to us - faith or evidence - depends on our goals.
"meaningless to say "X is important" without indicating what goal X is deemed to be important to."

meaningless without indication of goal? Suppose I say: your daughter is pretty. You ask for my goal in making the statement. What for?

Excuse me, it is just a feeling. Please don't be offended. Let me fade away.

Faith or evidence being more important depending on goal? I don't think so. Faith is not based on goal. Being converted is not based on the goal to be converted. You marry not based on the need to get married. Based on love, preferably.
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Terrapin Station »

gad-fly wrote: June 16th, 2021, 12:06 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 16th, 2021, 8:37 am
gad-fly wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:08 pm
You didn't respond to my post above but it was serious.

If evidence isn't important, then why would you be asking for evidence for why evidence is important?
Which post?

Evidence is important depending on where, when, and how it applies. Being important is not the reason to ask a question. There are many. Evidence is not that important for some with fervent faith, who can hold conviction in the absence of evidence.

Evidence is not cure all medicine. Your life would be tortuous if the only thing you seek is medicine.
Is evidence important for why evidence is important?
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by LuckyR »

Thomyum2 wrote: June 16th, 2021, 8:49 am
LuckyR wrote: June 16th, 2021, 2:05 am
Thomyum2 wrote: June 15th, 2021, 10:24 am A miracle is an impossible event that happens, i.e. something which we previously believed couldn't have happened, or couldn't have happened without divine intervention. So whether or not an individual believes that something is a miracle will depend on what they believe is possible.

It's similar to evidence in that whether or not any given piece of evidence is convincing or explains something is going to vary from person to person. No two judges or jurors are necessarily going to see things the same way, even if they're looking at the very same set of evidence.

In this scientific age that we live in, I think we often don't believe in miracles because we tend to operate on the assumption that everything may eventually be explained by natural laws, and so such events are seen as not yet understood rather than as impossibilities.
Uummm... impossible events can't happen (by definition) thus if they do, they are not examples of miracles, they are examples of mislabelling.
They're no longer impossibilities once they happen, of course - I suppose I should have phrased it 'something we would previously have considered impossible' but thought that would be clear from the context of what I'd said earlier in the post.

My main point was to suggest that we see such events as new challenges for science to explain (even before they've been explained) rather than as miracles, which wouldn't ever be explainable in those terms. Inasmuch as we hold the assumption that science can potentially explain everything, we will dismiss miracles as impossible.
We are in agreement. Though just as science cannot prove religions valid (with or without miracles), it cannot disprove religion either.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by mystery »

Thomyum2 wrote: June 15th, 2021, 10:41 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:50 pm
Thomyum2 wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:40 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 14th, 2021, 12:24 pm



Thanks. It remains a mystery to me that this is not much more widely known and accepted. Perhaps it's just too scary to admit so clearly how little we really know?
It's a very thought-provoking idea here.
It is? In what way do you think it's thought-provoking? And do you have any thoughts as to why it "is not much more widely known and accepted"? I'm not challenging what you've written, but only looking for some expansion of your opinions.
It's thought-provoking to me because it makes me ask what it really means to know or be certain about something and I've never been able to quite answer this for myself. There have been plenty of times in my life when I've felt absolutely certain about something only to have been proven wrong.

I guess this has led me to feel that when we say such things as 'I know' or 'I am certain' or 'it is well known', we're expressing something more about our internal state of confidence with the subject being discussed, or our perceived ability to demonstrate knowledge through the performance of certain tasks (e.g. the ability to answer certain questions on a test in accordance with a certain set of right or wrong answers) than we are about the actual truth or falsehood of the information itself.

It probably deserves its own separate thread but I'm not sure where I'd start the conversation.
That is an interesting topic. Truth is an opinion even if shared by many. Self-confidence is in part about being assertive, being assertive usually means having a truth and defending or promoting it. Yet any truth is subject to be overturned, even facts are only one discovery to being incorrect.

Usually, anyone that is interested in getting the most accurate information will consider opposing information in detail.

This is not in sync however with social and financial success, so we learn to not do it.
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Steve3007 »

Steve3007 wrote:I didn't say that importance is a goal. I said that it's meaningless to say "X is important" without indicating what goal X is deemed to be important to.
gad-fly wrote:Suppose I say: your daughter is pretty. You ask for my goal in making the statement. What for?
How is that relevant to my proposal, re-quoted above? Did I say "It's meaningless to say 'X is pretty' without indicating a goal"?
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by Thomyum2 »

mystery wrote: June 17th, 2021, 5:30 am
Thomyum2 wrote: June 15th, 2021, 10:41 am It's thought-provoking to me because it makes me ask what it really means to know or be certain about something and I've never been able to quite answer this for myself. There have been plenty of times in my life when I've felt absolutely certain about something only to have been proven wrong.

I guess this has led me to feel that when we say such things as 'I know' or 'I am certain' or 'it is well known', we're expressing something more about our internal state of confidence with the subject being discussed, or our perceived ability to demonstrate knowledge through the performance of certain tasks (e.g. the ability to answer certain questions on a test in accordance with a certain set of right or wrong answers) than we are about the actual truth or falsehood of the information itself.

It probably deserves its own separate thread but I'm not sure where I'd start the conversation.
That is an interesting topic. Truth is an opinion even if shared by many. Self-confidence is in part about being assertive, being assertive usually means having a truth and defending or promoting it. Yet any truth is subject to be overturned, even facts are only one discovery to being incorrect.

Usually, anyone that is interested in getting the most accurate information will consider opposing information in detail.

This is not in sync however with social and financial success, so we learn to not do it.
The more I've thought about it, the more I've started to think that William James had the right idea when he said: "Truth is one species of good, and not, as is usually supposed, a category distinct from good, and co-ordinate with it. The true is the name of whatever proves itself to be good in the way of belief, and good, too, for definite, assignable reasons." In other words, if I'm understanding him correctly, we call something 'true' because it meets a certain set of qualifications for us - it fulfills that criteria which we value for meeting our definition of something that is true.

So in the context of what we've been discussing, for example, there are beliefs or propositions for which we value certain kinds or amounts of evidence, and when that qualification is met, we say it to be true. It is those 'definite, assignable reasons' that drive what we hold to be true, rather than some objective 'truth' that exists out there somewhere waiting for us to find it.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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Re: Faith vs Evidence in Religion

Post by gad-fly »

Steve3007 wrote: June 17th, 2021, 5:39 am
Steve3007 wrote:I didn't say that importance is a goal. I said that it's meaningless to say "X is important" without indicating what goal X is deemed to be important to.
gad-fly wrote:Suppose I say: your daughter is pretty. You ask for my goal in making the statement. What for?
How is that relevant to my proposal, re-quoted above? Did I say "It's meaningless to say 'X is pretty' without indicating a goal"?
"meaningless to say "X is important" without indicating what goal X is deemed to be important to."

Being important is a feeling or opinion. When the majority hold that opinion, it is called public opinion. What goal it is to hold the opinion is another question. Is the goal justified? That is yet another question. Suffice to say that having a feeling or opinion is not meaningless.

Back to the topic on religion.
What is your goal to be a believer?
I have faith.
But faith is not a goal. No goal, not important to you.
So what. You speak for yourself.
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