Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

Gnostic Christians like to reverse the usual verdicts that the bible shows as justice. We do this just for the sake of verification and agreement with what is posited as a good moral position, which is supposed to translate to ethical actions by believers. That is how we prove math and is a great way to prove the worthiness of the issues in the scriptures.

We do this because the bible says we should and we, as free thinkers and not sheeple, follow that bit of wisdom.

I was sitting there the other day and wondered what I would do if I was Noah. It is all a much of course, as shown by the doublets, but regardless, it has lessons to teach.

Yahweh is set on a genocide of biblical proportions, fictions, and is asking me, and you, should you want to see what a believer thinks.

What would you do in this story? Can you somehow make Yahweh look good enough to adore as god?

I, in my Noah personae, after chatting with Yahweh, decided that the right thing to do was tell Yahweh to find another traitor to humanity.

I would change much in this world if I could. A Gnostic world is so much more peaceful and just. Bahhh. But given the power to be a new Adam would be sacrilegious. I would be assuming that there was a defect in the first Adam, and that is fully against the Christian side of my doctrine.

The real capital (G) God, the one who created Yahweh, the (most vile god of gods ), would not allow that given the perfection of man and imperfection in Yahweh.

Would you help Yahweh with his genocide of man, or would you tell him where to go.

Would you be a traitor to humanity?

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DL
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

I'm unsure of the context to this discussion. Must we accept, for example, that planetary climate catastrophes (such as global flooding) are intentionally implemented by God? Should I come to this topic carrying belief for your Christian God, and for the factuality of the Noah story, that many consider allegorical?

To whom is this topic addressed, and exactly what is the question being asked?

P.S. In what sense is/was Noah a "traitor to humanity"?
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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I never thought of Noah as a traitor to humanity. Being complicit in humankind's genocide most certainly qualifies.

If Noah would have told Yahweh to "shove it" as you suggested, what would have changed? Noah would have been either struck with lighting or sent to hell while the rest of his family drowns and Yahweh finds another traitor as you suggested Noah should have explicitly demanded.

I suppose Noah could feel morally just and superior to Yahweh and a martyr to mankind if it was just himself but it wasn't. He would have had to make the decision to have is own family killed as well. That creates a vastly different moral and ethical decision.

The only justification Noah would have is "the ends justify the means" which is basically fighting evil with evil which makes Noah evil as well as Yahweh and no good to be had.
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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Biblical stories give us a slice into the minds and cultures of ancient Middle Eastern people. It's easy to see how morality has evolved since the Old Testament. Yes, Noah didn't make it his life's work to help others avoid catastrophe but to save himself, his own and to somehow fit every known species into his ark. Did he travel deep into Africa to collect local lions and the like. Did he travel to Australia for the kangaroos and koalas?

No, to the ancient Middle Eastern mind, the "world" was local. So, when Nero was deemed to be 666, The Beast, they were talking about how he was problematic for local Jews, not the world. The beliefs of fundamentalist Biblical literalists today would have been seen as extraordinarily dumb and naive back then, treating obvious metaphors and morality tales as history.

Another fun one, consider the kind of person Job was, seeing his ten children killed and then happily accepting replacements later on. Since only Jesus was resurrected, the new set of offspring would have been gifted to Job for his loyalty (like being an employee of a mob boss). Pretty hardcore. I personally would not accept a new dog from someone who deliberately killed my current one, let alone a child.

Today, people are far more sensitive to such issues. In the second Wonderwoman movie, the mind of the heroine's old boyfriend inhabits a stranger, whose body is taken over for an extended period, including sexual contact with Wonderwoman (let's hope the "vessel" man was not in a serious relationship). It's insensitive in much the same way as Noah and Job, where the focus in so strongly on the heroes that bit players are completely objectified. However, there were many complaints from fans about Wonderwoman's callousness in that film (not to mention some B-grade writing, plotting and acting).
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 10:46 pm I never thought of Noah as a traitor to humanity. Being complicit in humankind's genocide most certainly qualifies.

If Noah would have told Yahweh to "shove it" as you suggested, what would have changed? Noah would have been either struck with lighting or sent to hell while the rest of his family drowns and Yahweh finds another traitor as you suggested Noah should have explicitly demanded.

I suppose Noah could feel morally just and superior to Yahweh and a martyr to mankind if it was just himself but it wasn't. He would have had to make the decision to have is own family killed as well. That creates a vastly different moral and ethical decision.

The only justification Noah would have is "the ends justify the means" which is basically fighting evil with evil which makes Noah evil as well as Yahweh and no good to be had.
Good dualistic thinking.

He was a traitor for not negotiating harder, but a hero because without him we would not be here, in this myth that is.

Pleasure.

Regards
DL
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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Sy Borg wrote: June 19th, 2021, 11:47 pm Biblical stories give us a slice into the minds and cultures of ancient Middle Eastern people. It's easy to see how morality has evolved since the Old Testament. Yes, Noah didn't make it his life's work to help others avoid catastrophe but to save himself, his own and to somehow fit every known species into his ark. Did he travel deep into Africa to collect local lions and the like. Did he travel to Australia for the kangaroos and koalas?

No, to the ancient Middle Eastern mind, the "world" was local. So, when Nero was deemed to be 666, The Beast, they were talking about how he was problematic for local Jews, not the world. The beliefs of fundamentalist Biblical literalists today would have been seen as extraordinarily dumb and naive back then, treating obvious metaphors and morality tales as history.

Another fun one, consider the kind of person Job was, seeing his ten children killed and then happily accepting replacements later on. Since only Jesus was resurrected, the new set of offspring would have been gifted to Job for his loyalty (like being an employee of a mob boss). Pretty hardcore. I personally would not accept a new dog from someone who deliberately killed my current one, let alone a child.

Today, people are far more sensitive to such issues. In the second Wonderwoman movie, the mind of the heroine's old boyfriend inhabits a stranger, whose body is taken over for an extended period, including sexual contact with Wonderwoman (let's hope the "vessel" man was not in a serious relationship). It's insensitive in much the same way as Noah and Job, where the focus in so strongly on the heroes that bit players are completely objectified. However, there were many complaints from fans about Wonderwoman's callousness in that film (not to mention some B-grade writing, plotting and acting).
Yes.

I see a lot of men writing for women as well, and it is getting stupid, thanks to stupid men.

We sure want to drag women down to our a hole levels and end like Muslims who think and are told by their putrid holy books that women are worth less than men.

The opposite is closer to the truth.

I use the law of the sea on land as well. Women and children first.

That is the manly thing to do.

Equality be damned. Duty first.

Regards
DL
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 8:43 am
I'm unsure of the context to this discussion. Must we accept, for example, that planetary climate catastrophes (such as global flooding) are intentionally implemented by God?
If we wish to analyze what Noah dis, yes.
Should I come to this topic carrying belief for your Christian God, and for the factuality of the Noah story, that many consider allegorical?
Come as you wish.

If a believer, you will learn morals.

If a non-believer who respects the genocidal gods and homophobic and misogynous religions, ditto.

If you have condemned Yahweh types to hell, you don't need my moral tough love.
To whom is this topic addressed, and exactly what is the question being asked?

P.S. In what sense is/was Noah a "traitor to humanity"?
That is laid out.

The other answers I put might also help.

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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

Post by polargirl »

Greatest I am wrote: June 24th, 2021, 12:12 pm
polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 10:46 pm I never thought of Noah as a traitor to humanity. Being complicit in humankind's genocide most certainly qualifies.

If Noah would have told Yahweh to "shove it" as you suggested, what would have changed? Noah would have been either struck with lighting or sent to hell while the rest of his family drowns and Yahweh finds another traitor as you suggested Noah should have explicitly demanded.

I suppose Noah could feel morally just and superior to Yahweh and a martyr to mankind if it was just himself but it wasn't. He would have had to make the decision to have is own family killed as well. That creates a vastly different moral and ethical decision.

The only justification Noah would have is "the ends justify the means" which is basically fighting evil with evil which makes Noah evil as well as Yahweh and no good to be had.
Good dualistic thinking.

He was a traitor for not negotiating harder, but a hero because without him we would not be here, in this myth that is.

Pleasure.

Regards
DL
I am not sure what was dualistic about my response.

The Jewish mythical god of genocide and so many other things I'd rather not mention right now doesn't negotiate. The closest example of God's willingness to negotiate that I can think of offhand was tolerating Abraham's pleas to save Sodom and continually lowering his demand for the number of righteous people all the way down to one. Maybe Noah could have done something like that?

True according to the myth. We would not be here had it not been for Noah. That doesn't change what Noah is. Humans would not be here if dinosaurs were still around. That doesn't make dinosaurs evil.
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

Post by Sy Borg »

I still want to know how Noah saved the kangaroos.
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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polargirl wrote: June 24th, 2021, 4:45 pm
Greatest I am wrote: June 24th, 2021, 12:12 pm
polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 10:46 pm I never thought of Noah as a traitor to humanity. Being complicit in humankind's genocide most certainly qualifies.

If Noah would have told Yahweh to "shove it" as you suggested, what would have changed? Noah would have been either struck with lighting or sent to hell while the rest of his family drowns and Yahweh finds another traitor as you suggested Noah should have explicitly demanded.

I suppose Noah could feel morally just and superior to Yahweh and a martyr to mankind if it was just himself but it wasn't. He would have had to make the decision to have is own family killed as well. That creates a vastly different moral and ethical decision.

The only justification Noah would have is "the ends justify the means" which is basically fighting evil with evil which makes Noah evil as well as Yahweh and no good to be had.
Good dualistic thinking.

He was a traitor for not negotiating harder, but a hero because without him we would not be here, in this myth that is.

Pleasure.

Regards
DL
I am not sure what was dualistic about my response.

The Jewish mythical god of genocide and so many other things I'd rather not mention right now doesn't negotiate. The closest example of God's willingness to negotiate that I can think of offhand was tolerating Abraham's pleas to save Sodom and continually lowering his demand for the number of righteous people all the way down to one. Maybe Noah could have done something like that?

True according to the myth. We would not be here had it not been for Noah. That doesn't change what Noah is. Humans would not be here if dinosaurs were still around. That doesn't make dinosaurs evil.
Given that Noah may have seen betraying man, while still allowing for a new root and tree, he might have seen it as our best possible end as a species.

He was not portrayed as negotiating much at all so I am not sure why you gave your example.

What is dualistic in what I saw you write above, was you seeing both sides of Noah's choices.

I meant it in a positive way.

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DL
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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Sy Borg wrote: June 24th, 2021, 5:01 pm I still want to know how Noah saved the kangaroos.
Flying pigs.

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DL
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 8:43 am Should I come to this topic carrying belief for your Christian God, and for the factuality of the Noah story, that many consider allegorical?
Greatest I am wrote: June 24th, 2021, 12:27 pm Come as you wish.

If a believer, you will learn morals.

If a non-believer who respects the genocidal gods and homophobic and misogynous religions, ditto.

If you have condemned Yahweh types to hell, you don't need my moral tough love.
I am a believer, but not in your Christian God. None of the other descriptions you offer seem to cover me either. So no room for the likes of me here, it seems.
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Re: Was Noah a traitor to humanity? Should he have told God where to shove his ark?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: June 25th, 2021, 8:38 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 19th, 2021, 8:43 am Should I come to this topic carrying belief for your Christian God, and for the factuality of the Noah story, that many consider allegorical?
Greatest I am wrote: June 24th, 2021, 12:27 pm Come as you wish.

If a believer, you will learn morals.

If a non-believer who respects the genocidal gods and homophobic and misogynous religions, ditto.

If you have condemned Yahweh types to hell, you don't need my moral tough love.
I am a believer, but not in your Christian God. None of the other descriptions you offer seem to cover me either. So no room for the likes of me here, it seems.
I am a Gnostic. I am my Gnostic Christian God.

Did you want to opine on Noah or his myth from a moral standpoint?

Regarsd
DL
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