Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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polargirl
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Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by polargirl »

Almost every religious philosopher states that good is stronger than evil. I disagree.

Evil is stronger than good because evil can emulate good whereas good cannot emulate evil. Evil emulating good for reasons like "the ends justify the means" completely preserves the evil nature of such act whereas committing lesser evil to prevent greater evil is still behaving evilly.

Good does eventually triumph over evil but not because good is stronger than evil. The reason is evil turns on itself whereas good does not.

So in conclusion, good only triumphs by waiting out evil for it to eventually turn on itself rather than by good's own strength versus evil.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by psyreporter »

By logic, there is only 'good'. The reason is that the origin of the denotation 'good' and 'bad' is valuing in which one does not make a choice but 'values'. Valuing logically requires a distinguish-ability which it appropriates from what can be indicated as 'good per se'. If that indicated 'good' could be anything other than that it is said to be 'per se', it would need to have been valued, which is a logical impossibility.

Therefor, evil isn't of substance. Evil is what lessens good (corruption).

Within the context of 'reason' there is no place for evil.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by LuckyR »

polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 11:00 pm Almost every religious philosopher states that good is stronger than evil. I disagree.

Evil is stronger than good because evil can emulate good whereas good cannot emulate evil. Evil emulating good for reasons like "the ends justify the means" completely preserves the evil nature of such act whereas committing lesser evil to prevent greater evil is still behaving evilly.

Good does eventually triumph over evil but not because good is stronger than evil. The reason is evil turns on itself whereas good does not.

So in conclusion, good only triumphs by waiting out evil for it to eventually turn on itself rather than by good's own strength versus evil.
Evil just appears "stronger", but actually evil is "easier" than good, due to the second law of thermodynamics. It is always easier to tear down or scatter than to build up or organize.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by mystery »

evil is defined by morality.

morality is subjective.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by polargirl »

LuckyR wrote: June 20th, 2021, 2:37 am
Evil just appears "stronger", but actually evil is "easier" than good, due to the second law of thermodynamics. It is always easier to tear down or scatter than to build up or organize.
The second law of thermodynamics might be why evil turns on itself whereas good does not.

Evil is indeed easier than good and probably for the thermodynamics law reason you mentioned.

Does that make evil only appear to be stronger rather than actually be stronger? I would have to say evil is stronger at least in the shorter term. Being easier is a recruitment advantage. That builds strength as does the more immediate rewards evil offers that good often does not.

The weakness of evil is in the longer term due to its unsustainability. Evil always remains stronger as a whole even though specific instances of it are undone by other evil to the point of allowing good to triumph at times.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

mystery wrote: June 20th, 2021, 5:03 am evil is defined by morality.

morality is subjective.
Yes, that's about it. If we ask "what is good?", we will soon need to ask "...good for who/what?" And that's the crux of the issue. What's good for me is bad for you, or for insects, or Jeff Bezos, or the environment, or.... Good is relative to the thing it is good for; evil is the same.

As for which is stronger? Given the actual nature and meaning of good and evil, I honestly don't see that it matters. The question (and its answer) are not significant or relevant, I don't think.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by chewybrian »

polargirl wrote: June 20th, 2021, 7:39 am
LuckyR wrote: June 20th, 2021, 2:37 am
Evil just appears "stronger", but actually evil is "easier" than good, due to the second law of thermodynamics. It is always easier to tear down or scatter than to build up or organize.
The second law of thermodynamics might be why evil turns on itself whereas good does not.

Evil is indeed easier than good and probably for the thermodynamics law reason you mentioned.

Does that make evil only appear to be stronger rather than actually be stronger? I would have to say evil is stronger at least in the shorter term. Being easier is a recruitment advantage. That builds strength as does the more immediate rewards evil offers that good often does not.

The weakness of evil is in the longer term due to its unsustainability. Evil always remains stronger as a whole even though specific instances of it are undone by other evil to the point of allowing good to triumph at times.
I think you are right that evil or selfishness has instant appeal, while being good requires a bit of second sight. Maybe most of us have to learn the hard way for the reasons you are listing. If you've been through issues like anxiety, depression, anger or addiction (and out the other side), you might see and agree that the good path is actually easier in the end.

It is easier on you if you don't feel the need to judge others and worry about getting your fair share (or an unfair advantage) at all times. It's quite calming to be able to assume the best intentions in others (when it's not obvious that they are trying to stick it to you). If you distrust others, they will sense this and distrust you. Your impression that the world is hostile actually makes the world more hostile! That simple act of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt frees up a lot of mental energy and makes the world seem better. Doing the right thing when nobody is looking allows you to sleep the sleep of the just. It's worth the effort, but hard to see until you embrace it and try it for real.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

chewybrian wrote: June 20th, 2021, 10:54 am It is easier on you if you don't feel the need to judge others and worry about getting your fair share (or an unfair advantage) at all times. It's quite calming to be able to assume the best intentions in others (when it's not obvious that they are trying to stick it to you). If you distrust others, they will sense this and distrust you. Your impression that the world is hostile actually makes the world more hostile! That simple act of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt frees up a lot of mental energy and makes the world seem better. Doing the right thing when nobody is looking allows you to sleep the sleep of the just. It's worth the effort, but hard to see until you embrace it and try it for real.
Damn! Now I feel small and humbled for not seeing that. 😳 And I wish I'd thought of writing it first. 😋
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by psyreporter »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 20th, 2021, 10:41 am
mystery wrote: June 20th, 2021, 5:03 am evil is defined by morality.

morality is subjective.
Yes, that's about it. If we ask "what is good?", we will soon need to ask "...good for who/what?" And that's the crux of the issue. What's good for me is bad for you, or for insects, or Jeff Bezos, or the environment, or.... Good is relative to the thing it is good for; evil is the same.

As for which is stronger? Given the actual nature and meaning of good and evil, I honestly don't see that it matters. The question (and its answer) are not significant or relevant, I don't think.
Denotating good 'for' (who/what) is a fixating ethical claim and deviates from what can be said to be 'good'. The question 'what is good?' does not need to imply the question 'for who/what?'.

Philosopher Bertrand Russell has shown that there is another way. Bertrand Russell was opposed ethical claims because, in his view, ethics results in violence. Ethics is essentially a fixative claim to good and bad that legitimizes violence against what is claimed to be "bad" (i.e. 'evil').

According to Bertrand Russell ethical philosophy offers little more than self-serving argument to justify violence. He developed a disgust of all ethical claims.

(2020) The politics of logic - Philosophy at war: nationalism and logical analysis
Russell told one colleague that the talk (On Scientific Method in Philosophy, Oxford) ‘was partly inspired by disgust at the universal outburst of “righteousness” in all nations since the war began. It seems the essence of virtue is persecution, and it has given me a disgust of all ethical notions.
...
In private, Russell referred to the essay as ‘Philosophers and Pigs’.
...
Russell’s antiwar protest was so extensive that it would cost him both his job and, for a time, his personal freedom. His theoretical antidote to the irrational, sectarian vitriol between European nations was to try to show how logic could function as an international language that could be used impartially and dispassionately to adjudicate disputes. His theoretical antidote was, in other words, analytic philosophy.

‘The truth, whatever it may be, is the same in England, France, and Germany … it is in its essence neutral’

https://aeon.co/essays/philosophy-at-wa ... l-analysis

As Bertrand Russel has shown, there is a 'truth' that is essentially neutral for anyone. As in my logic in my previous post, that truth is equal to 'good per se' and within the context of reason there is no place for evil (which is exemplar by Bertrand Russell's philosophical intended 'anti-dote' for war, analytic philosophy).
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polargirl
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by polargirl »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 20th, 2021, 10:41 am
mystery wrote: June 20th, 2021, 5:03 am evil is defined by morality.

morality is subjective.
Yes, that's about it. If we ask "what is good?", we will soon need to ask "...good for who/what?" And that's the crux of the issue. What's good for me is bad for you, or for insects, or Jeff Bezos, or the environment, or.... Good is relative to the thing it is good for; evil is the same.

As for which is stronger? Given the actual nature and meaning of good and evil, I honestly don't see that it matters. The question (and its answer) are not significant or relevant, I don't think.

Good is indeed relative to the specific person. One's good is another's evil.

If that is to be accepted, then all future philosophical and religious discussion on good vs evil is moot.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Asif »

Good is always stronger than evil.
As OP said,evil is unsustainable and turns on itself eventually.
Why evil appears strong is because of the infrastructure of evil and its destructive nature being feared.
For most it is easier to be negative than to try to rectify.
But genuine good is a force of nature! Rare and beautiful! Indestructible!

Reason: off-topic ad hominem flooding
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by polargirl »

chewybrian wrote: June 20th, 2021, 10:54 am
I think you are right that evil or selfishness has instant appeal, while being good requires a bit of second sight. Maybe most of us have to learn the hard way for the reasons you are listing. If you've been through issues like anxiety, depression, anger or addiction (and out the other side), you might see and agree that the good path is actually easier in the end.

It is easier on you if you don't feel the need to judge others and worry about getting your fair share (or an unfair advantage) at all times. It's quite calming to be able to assume the best intentions in others (when it's not obvious that they are trying to stick it to you). If you distrust others, they will sense this and distrust you. Your impression that the world is hostile actually makes the world more hostile! That simple act of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt frees up a lot of mental energy and makes the world seem better. Doing the right thing when nobody is looking allows you to sleep the sleep of the just. It's worth the effort, but hard to see until you embrace it and try it for real.
In an isolated context, good generally is the wiser choice to take but not always. If choosing good over evil means being a martyr to someone without causes, is it worth it?

I am new here and I am not sure how the "preachy" rule works. Your last paragraph seems a bit preachy. I don't mind. I am just hoping the moderators cut me the same slack or even more since I am new and not delete my post.

Like someone else just recently posted about good versus evil itself, being able to choose to see the world as hostile or not is not only subjective but also a matter of different individuals perspectives. For some people, the world is indeed an evil place. I hate to come across as a wokester since I oppose what they are doing but this is what they mean by "check your privilege".

Ignoring the most privileged people (the elite), let's run that trite demographics profile of privilege: white, middle class, male, Christian, heterosexual, cisgender, able bodied/mind.

Your last post indicated addiction so I'll start with that. 12 step programs were designed by and for Christians. An atheist cannot complete the 12 steps because one of them is belief in a higher being or power. An essential component of atheism is a lack in such beliefs. 12 step programs recommend an atheist make one up of their own. That is auto-theism not atheism, however so that does not work for someone who wishes to remain a true atheist. This matters because courts order atheists into 12 step programs and demand they complete them to complete probation or parole.

I don't know if personal struggles made you homeless at times but there is a big difference between being a homeless man versus a homeless woman especially when it comes to sleeping rough. Even for the housed, men can usually go out almost anywhere at anytime by themselves save for ethnically hostile areas and feel safe whereas woman have to feel the hostility much more often to the point many don't go out at night alone. Women's shelter's usually have fewer programs and harsher rules for women They are such an unsafe space for many women that they choose to sleep on the streets and risk rape. Upper middle class white women do have the advantage of capitalist psychology designed around them more than even upper middle class white men do. When it comes to lower income women and women of color? Not so much. Servicewoman suffering trauma are generally ignored. Group therapy is often counter-productive because often the trauma was inflicted by servicemen in their own forces.

That is for the winning side of a war that American with its first world privilege of experiencing. The losing side experiences racism often in the form of genocide. The ancestors of African-Americans were usually the losers of local wars in Africa while Native-Americans lost on their own soil. It has had multi-generation lasting consequences. To someone experiencing genocide around them, the world is indeed an evil place and choice isn't a practical option if they wish to survive.

I am not even going to go into transgender much where all these victim groups then turn predator on making half the world think and act like they don't have a right to exist. Unlike racial genocide, the violence is carried out by the people transgenders most depend on in life and often experience it alone. Family is much more likely to be there for someone like yourself going through mental health and addiction issues than for transgenders especially of color.

Do you believe that a black, atheist, homeless, transgender, woman, who immigrated from an environment of racial genocide so lacks any family and suffers severe mental illness is just as capable as you are to see the world as mostly good? Sincere question.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Atla »

Good is stronger than evil one-on-one, however evil outnumbers good by about four-to-one and wins overall.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by chewybrian »

polargirl wrote: June 20th, 2021, 3:28 pm
chewybrian wrote: June 20th, 2021, 10:54 am
I think you are right that evil or selfishness has instant appeal, while being good requires a bit of second sight. Maybe most of us have to learn the hard way for the reasons you are listing. If you've been through issues like anxiety, depression, anger or addiction (and out the other side), you might see and agree that the good path is actually easier in the end.

It is easier on you if you don't feel the need to judge others and worry about getting your fair share (or an unfair advantage) at all times. It's quite calming to be able to assume the best intentions in others (when it's not obvious that they are trying to stick it to you). If you distrust others, they will sense this and distrust you. Your impression that the world is hostile actually makes the world more hostile! That simple act of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt frees up a lot of mental energy and makes the world seem better. Doing the right thing when nobody is looking allows you to sleep the sleep of the just. It's worth the effort, but hard to see until you embrace it and try it for real.
I am new here and I am not sure how the "preachy" rule works. Your last paragraph seems a bit preachy. I don't mind. I am just hoping the moderators cut me the same slack or even more since I am new and not delete my post.
I find a lot of value in philosophy and psychology for overcoming problems, and none in religion. An atheist can work their way through the SMART program, learning how to distract themselves when cravings come up, how to use methods of cognitive behavioral therapy and such, which goes right back to stoic philosophy. My choice for help would be philosophy or a therapist, not a bible or even AA. I think you are assuming a lot about me, perhaps.

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polargirl wrote: June 20th, 2021, 3:28 pm Do you believe that a black, atheist, homeless, transgender, woman, who immigrated from an environment of racial genocide so lacks any family and suffers severe mental illness is just as capable as you are to see the world as mostly good? Sincere question.
Yes, I do. My question to you right back would be whether or not a white straight male from the suburbs could live a life full of as much suffering or more than this person you made up. My answer is also yes. This is not because the world is fair. It is because we cause much of our own suffering, which is the point I was trying to make.

If you go around trying to make a just world all of the time, expecting or demanding constant justice, you are bound to find what seems like injustice around every corner. Whether you are factually correct or not, this will make you unhappy. If you take it far enough down the line, your frustration can lead to anger, anxiety, depression, addiction... The really hard part is admitting that we may be causing injustice ourselves in our quest to rid the world of injustice. When I felt I knew right from wrong and that others should also know the 'obvious truths', sometimes I was too quick to judge people too harshly. Sometimes I was the jerk!

Rather than finding injustice everywhere (which I used to do all the time!), I choose to give the world the benefit of the doubt whenever it does not seem dangerous to do so. Rather than worrying about whether they 'got away with something', I get to go on enjoying the things that are important to me without stress, and I don't feel the weight of the world coming down on me.

Can your made up person see wisdom if it is presented to them? Can they put it to use for their own benefit? I believe they can, and anyone can. So, when they see Socrates said that nobody is purposely evil, they can choose to believe it or not. If they assent, they lose a lot of reasons for being bitter and angry at the world. They can see actions that hurt them as actions based on ignorance rather than malice. Then they don't have to waste energy hating the people that hurt them. Living well is the best revenge, but you won't live well if actual revenge is on your mind.

That's all I'm saying. I believe it, though I can't prove it. It didn't come from the scriptures, but it might come off preachy because I believe it so strongly, because it helped me so much. Of course, it is natural for me to assume that it could help others since it helped me, but who knows?
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Papus79 »

A lot of this is in framing the question of what's good or evil.

I think evil is probably the easier of the two to see, just because we're more disposed to detecting problems in our environment, and the flip side of this coin has also been noted (perhaps overemphasized in some cases) by techno-optimists who'd tell us that we don't hear how much world famine has dropped and other things because it doesn't bleed thus doesn't lead.

Only sharing this to contextualize my answer, I tend to lump 'evil' into a few categories:

1) Biological exigence - ie. you're in a situation where food or water is a scarce resource and zero-sum games are being played over their distribution. This can also happen in some ways in the mating or work place markets although you see fewer fatalities in this regard and more decent people broken by corrupt systems, corrupt employers, abusive partners, power imbalances being indulged lets just say where people are being treated like fuel rods.

2) The lesser consuming the greater, such a decent person being consumed by a terrible environment, another person being consumed by a drug addiction, or on a perhaps wildly different note (might seem almost like a break of category) - the many burnings of the Library of Alexandria by religious zealots. One could add journalists being destroyed/tortured/killed by corrupt regimes. It's a case of power outright destroying consciousness and intelligence and sometimes outright extinguishing it.

3) Multipolar traps degrading what it is to be human, it's really a form of competitive exigence but it's something like a 'survival of the most wilfully corrupt', you could look at it as societal defection cascades but it's perhaps most importantly whoever leads that cascade or becomes the a'-hole first wins the biggest.

Good almost seems to strangely be having any emotional literacy or capacity for enlightened self-interest (ie. long-termism) and not only be able to build it in yourself but foster it in others.

You can get into all sorts of other odd things like frequency, mystical experiences, the trouble I have with that is 'good' isn't the same as 'pleasurable', and a particular esoteric author I'm familiar with - in one of his lectures - pointed out that if bliss made holiness then strip clubs would be filled with saints. That's clearly not the case.

Good wins out of people, on average, want to go on living. Evil, as a strategy - such as defection - only works in small cases until the entirety of that society, even those with the strongest cooperative instincts, find themselves in such a debased structure that no ill-gotten gains are possible and where the world has really become an undesirable place to live. The problem with power here is that it can deepen the chasm between natural corrections and what's really chilling is what could come at us if a place like China neurolinked all of its citizens to weigh whether each individual thought was in line with the communist party's ideology, or genetic reprogramming of people to have 99.9% of the populace completely docile to any form of power exerted on them so long as they themselves had three square meals and a place to sleep.

I don't know that there is a solution to this because Machiavellianism never sleeps and increased technology just keeps raising the stakes and becomes all the more important to people who care about nothing but power.
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