Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Alkis
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Alkis »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 23rd, 2021, 10:11 am
Morals are our idea of correct behavior, yes? We choose to say that X is good behaviour and Y is not, and morals are the consensus view of the community as regards such things, yes? I don't mean that such things are decided at random, only that they are decided; chosen, not forced upon us by Nature or the Universe.

Survival, on the other hand, isn't really a choice, it is a necessity. We do what we must, not what we choose, to survive. Survival overrides such trivia as morals, doesn't it? If there is no other food available, we eat each other, even though we would normally consider cannibalism to be morally wrong. Survival trumps morals every time. So, if this is so, survival is no foundation for an objective morality, is it?

By this reasoning, I conclude that there is no objective aspect to morals, none at all.

I'm not attacking you, or your opinions, when I ask this, it's a genuine question: can you explain why I am wrong?
First of all, by asking "why you are wrong" implies that 1) I have already said you are wrong (which I didn't) and 2) that maybe you are not sure about your viewpoint (but it only sounds so)! :) And certainly I didn't even thought for a moment that you were attacking me or criticized me! :) This is what a philosophical discussion is about: presenting viewpoints and supporting them with sound arguments or examples.

Re: "Survival ... is a necessity". Certainly, but there are innumerable levels and kinds of survival, quantitative and qualitative, material and immaterial in nature. That's why I talked abut "enhancing survival". If I do something that helps you in achieving some purpose, I help your survival. And the opposite, if I deprive you of or reduce something that you need to achieve that purpose, I act against your survival. This is correct and logical, isn't it? We can then call this an objective viewpoint. On the condition, of course, that what you want to achieve as well as my helping you in that, really helps you, enhances your survival. E.g. if my son has math problems to solve for his homework and I "help" him by solving them for him, I don't really help him, do I? Helping him would be to assist him in solving them himself. So, we are talking about the end result.

On the same line, stealing from someone is reducing his survival and is considered bad, wrong, immoral, unethical etc. in all the societies. So we can talk about an objective moral. There's no room for relativity or subjectivity here, is there? It is not a matter of opinion, is it?

(Note: Immaterial survival? Yes, of course. I survive better when I am happy than when I feel miserable. I survive better when I am valued and respected as a person, my work and my actions are acknowledged, I get a respectable post in a company, and so one.)

I hope that all this covers your question and then more! :)
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Greatest I am
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

arjand wrote: June 20th, 2021, 12:04 am By logic, there is only 'good'. The reason is that the origin of the denotation 'good' and 'bad' is valuing in which one does not make a choice but 'values'. Valuing logically requires a distinguish-ability which it appropriates from what can be indicated as 'good per se'. If that indicated 'good' could be anything other than that it is said to be 'per se', it would need to have been valued, which is a logical impossibility.

Therefor, evil isn't of substance. Evil is what lessens good (corruption).

Within the context of 'reason' there is no place for evil.
I agree in part with you here, but definitely see a place and necessity for evil. Within our evolution.

I just put this in another thread but it fits here.

--------

Think of the dualism of both god and evolution.

Can I have you look at evolution and think of cooperation as good and competition as evil because it creates a loser who will think evil has befallen him or her?

If you can and, then you might see what our friend means by the evil parts of life, where we lose at a competition/evil/Satan, and understanding it for what it is, will indeed strengthen the loser, or let him know he is competing in the wrong field or area.

As you might see, I have no problem of evil when I wear my naturalist hat.

Nature explains all human to human evil quite easily.

Regards
DL
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psyreporter
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by psyreporter »

Greatest I am wrote: July 19th, 2021, 8:04 pmI agree in part with you here, but definitely see a place and necessity for evil. Within our evolution.
I do not agree.

The basic disposition of life is 'lack of reason' due to the simple logical truth that something cannot be the origin of itself, which implies that the origin of life cannot reside within the scope of an individual. Due to the nessesity of an external origin of life, it implies that there is a disposition of lack of reason.

Due to the basic disposition of lack of reason, life is essentially subjected to consume value (eating). This implies that within the context of 'subjective experience' one assumes the value in the world as a 'given'.

* lack of reason = a position of complete lack of reason to exist which is to be overcome before life 'has manifested', which is quite a hurdle on a fundamental level. It explains that some people have the idea Nature is 'evil'.

As indicated, evil is corruption of good. To overcome evil such as barbaric eating would require reason beyond value, which requires a potential that is created by addressing the question "What is 'good'?" (morality), which can be demanded on behalf of human dignity.

From this perspective, within the context of reason there is no place for evil.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

arjand wrote: July 20th, 2021, 7:14 pm
Greatest I am wrote: July 19th, 2021, 8:04 pmI agree in part with you here, but definitely see a place and necessity for evil. Within our evolution.
I do not agree.

The basic disposition of life is 'lack of reason' due to the simple logical truth that something cannot be the origin of itself, which implies that the origin of life cannot reside within the scope of an individual. Due to the nessesity of an external origin of life, it implies that there is a disposition of lack of reason.

Due to the basic disposition of lack of reason, life is essentially subjected to consume value (eating). This implies that within the context of 'subjective experience' one assumes the value in the world as a 'given'.

* lack of reason = a position of complete lack of reason to exist which is to be overcome before life 'has manifested', which is quite a hurdle on a fundamental level. It explains that some people have the idea Nature is 'evil'.

As indicated, evil is corruption of good. To overcome evil such as barbaric eating would require reason beyond value, which requires a potential that is created by addressing the question "What is 'good'?" (morality), which can be demanded on behalf of human dignity.

From this perspective, within the context of reason there is no place for evil.
Which ignores that we live in a dualistic universes.

You are trying to have Yin without Yang.

Good and evil compliment each other. One does not say the other does not exist.

Eating is good, when hungry, be it barbaric eating or eating some other way.

Regards
DL
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Leontiskos
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Leontiskos »

polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 11:00 pm Almost every religious philosopher states that good is stronger than evil. I disagree.
Could you give an example of a few religious philosophers who hold that good is stronger than evil? I have never heard it stated that way.
Evil is stronger than good because evil can emulate good whereas good cannot emulate evil. Evil emulating good for reasons like "the ends justify the means" completely preserves the evil nature of such act whereas committing lesser evil to prevent greater evil is still behaving evilly.

Good does eventually triumph over evil but not because good is stronger than evil. The reason is evil turns on itself whereas good does not.

So in conclusion, good only triumphs by waiting out evil for it to eventually turn on itself rather than by good's own strength versus evil.
I am wondering why emulation would imply strength. You seem to be holding to the position that if X can emulate Y, and Y cannot emulate X, then X is stronger than Y. Is there a particular reason why you take this to be true?

This is the way I want to interpret your argument: "Evil has more options available to it than Good, therefore Evil is stronger than Good."* I would agree that Evil has more options available to it than Good, but I would add that there are certain actions and dispositions (e.g. altruism) which are only available to Good, and which Evil cannot fully emulate.

Now, does having more options available make one stronger? It certainly makes one more resourceful, which could be seen as a form of strength. But I agree that, "Evil turns on itself." That is, evil acts are destructive and depleting of oneself and others. For this reason the only additional options available to Evil are actions which have the effect of weakening oneself and others. Therefore if Good limits itself to actions which build up or at least do not destroy oneself and others, and Evil characteristically makes use of actions which destroy oneself and others, it is Good which has more strength, for the good man has integrity of body and soul and harms neither himself nor others (unduly). Resorting to evil is not a sign or exercise of strength. On the contrary, it is often a sign of desperation.

A classic case would be a confrontation in which the evil man is willing to murder the good man but the good man is not willing to murder the evil man, and so the good man is murdered by the evil man. One might conclude that the evil man is stronger than the good man, and thus Evil is stronger than Good. But presumably the only difference between the two men is their willingness to murder. Is a man who is willing to murder stronger than a man who is not willing to murder? I don't think so. Isn't it more likely that the man who is willing to undergo death in order to avoid evil is stronger than the man who feels he must murder in order to get his way?

*Although I am imitating your style in referring to Good and Evil, by "Good" I mean a good person and by "Evil" I mean an evil person.
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psyreporter
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by psyreporter »

Greatest I am wrote: July 21st, 2021, 10:02 am Which ignores that we live in a dualistic universes.

You are trying to have Yin without Yang.

Good and evil compliment each other. One does not say the other does not exist.

Eating is good, when hungry, be it barbaric eating or eating some other way.

Regards
DL
No, that is not correct. Truth has no opposite. (falsity is 'not truth' and nothing by itself) From that perspective, 'good' (per se) equally has no opposite and evil would merely indicate that what lessens good (corruption).

Only when one denotes 'good' subjectively, then arises as opposite 'evil' with an equal subjective nature, which is logical because something that is denoted in a retro-perspective has been valued which means that it stands in contrast. From this perspective, 'good', 'evil' and 'luck' within the scope of a retro-perspective would be 'in the eye of the beholder' (subjective) and not something of substance.

As cited earlier, philosopher Bertrand Russell was opposed ethical claims (subjective denotions of 'good' and 'evil') because, in his view, such claims result in violence. Ethics is essentially a fixative claim to good and bad that legitimizes violence against what is claimed to be 'evil'.

(2020) The politics of logic - Philosophy at war: nationalism and logical analysis
Russell told one colleague that the talk (On Scientific Method in Philosophy, Oxford) ‘was partly inspired by disgust at the universal outburst of “righteousness” in all nations since the war began. It seems the essence of virtue is persecution, and it has given me a disgust of all ethical notions.
...
In private, Russell referred to the essay as ‘Philosophers and 🐖 Pigs’.
...
Russell’s antiwar protest was so extensive that it would cost him both his job and, for a time, his personal freedom. His theoretical antidote to the irrational, sectarian vitriol between European nations was to try to show how logic could function as an international language that could be used impartially and dispassionately to adjudicate disputes. His theoretical antidote was, in other words, analytic philosophy.

‘The truth, whatever it may be, is the same in England, France, and Germany … it is in its essence neutral’

https://aeon.co/essays/philosophy-at-wa ... l-analysis

When one makes an ethical claim, one essentially attempts to 'cling on' for hope and as Spinoza has indicated, there can be no hope without fear and to guide one by fear results in evil. This may explain why ethical notions (subjective denotions of 'good', 'evil' and 'luck' etc) deviate from reason.

As Bertrand Russel has shown, there is a 'truth' that is essentially neutral for anyone. Logically, the same applies for 'good' (per se) which amounts to morality in philosophy.

An example with regard the argument that there is no place for evil within the context of reason.

When an asteroid impacts on Earth and almost wipes out the human specie then the remaining humans may perceive the impact as evil. However, within the scope of reason humans have the opportunity to prevent the impact or to have an emergency plan (e.g. escape to a different planet, cope with the situation efficiently, minimize the damage etc). From that perspective, the whole of Nature can be perceived as a force to turn facts favorable and when one adheres to reason, one is simply to prevent the asteroid impact from causing harm.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

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polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 11:00 pm Almost every religious philosopher states that good is stronger than evil. I disagree.

Evil is stronger than good because evil can emulate good whereas good cannot emulate evil. Evil emulating good for reasons like "the ends justify the means" completely preserves the evil nature of such act whereas committing lesser evil to prevent greater evil is still behaving evilly.

Good does eventually triumph over evil but not because good is stronger than evil. The reason is evil turns on itself whereas good does not.

So in conclusion, good only triumphs by waiting out evil for it to eventually turn on itself rather than by good's own strength versus evil.
There is no such thing as good and evil, in the sense that one might be "stronger" than another. They are not forces of nature, what they are is something entirely different.
Good are the things that please us and evil are those things that do not.
They are just judgemental values we give to objects, people and events.
What is evil to you might be good for me a vice versa. I think mushrooms and sprouts are the epitome of evil and spoily any meal that they are included with. I also think that rhinestone country and western music is the hight of bad taste and my idea of hell would be stuck in a small room with Christians who incessantly play Dolly Parton.
Fanman
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Fanman »

I think it depends on how you define “strength”. The number one goal of evil is to establish a powerbase. From where it can dictate often shrouded malevolence. So if we are talking about strength in terms of force, then evil is stronger than good. The strength of good is found in its perseverance and resistance to evil.

I don’t know if good ultimately defeats evil, but from my life experiences, I would say that evil always repeats the same set of critical mistakes that lead to its downfall. Overconfidence in its power, underestimating its victims' capability and being too comfortable in its methods. Good doesn’t really have to do anything but persevere, because evil always defeats itself by aiming too high, and building castles in the sky. Conversely, good stays grounded and always seeks peaceful resolutions. The last thing it wants is power.

Evil dominates whereas good sustains. Both require strength, but different kinds of strength.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 5:35 pm
polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 11:00 pm Almost every religious philosopher states that good is stronger than evil. I disagree.

Evil is stronger than good because evil can emulate good whereas good cannot emulate evil. Evil emulating good for reasons like "the ends justify the means" completely preserves the evil nature of such act whereas committing lesser evil to prevent greater evil is still behaving evilly.

Good does eventually triumph over evil but not because good is stronger than evil. The reason is evil turns on itself whereas good does not.

So in conclusion, good only triumphs by waiting out evil for it to eventually turn on itself rather than by good's own strength versus evil.
There is no such thing as good and evil, in the sense that one might be "stronger" than another. They are not forces of nature, what they are is something entirely different.
Good are the things that please us and evil are those things that do not.
They are just judgemental values we give to objects, people and events.
What is evil to you might be good for me a vice versa. I think mushrooms and sprouts are the epitome of evil and spoily any meal that they are included with. I also think that rhinestone country and western music is the hight of bad taste and my idea of hell would be stuck in a small room with Christians who incessantly play Dolly Parton.
So true. One issue is that the scale that has good on one end and evil on the other, varies in it's definition from observer to observer as it is a subjective description. Secondly, since the terms within a scale are relative, the placement along each scale of individual acts or events is also subjective.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 2:10 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 5:35 pm
polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 11:00 pm Almost every religious philosopher states that good is stronger than evil. I disagree.

Evil is stronger than good because evil can emulate good whereas good cannot emulate evil. Evil emulating good for reasons like "the ends justify the means" completely preserves the evil nature of such act whereas committing lesser evil to prevent greater evil is still behaving evilly.

Good does eventually triumph over evil but not because good is stronger than evil. The reason is evil turns on itself whereas good does not.

So in conclusion, good only triumphs by waiting out evil for it to eventually turn on itself rather than by good's own strength versus evil.
There is no such thing as good and evil, in the sense that one might be "stronger" than another. They are not forces of nature, what they are is something entirely different.
Good are the things that please us and evil are those things that do not.
They are just judgemental values we give to objects, people and events.
What is evil to you might be good for me a vice versa. I think mushrooms and sprouts are the epitome of evil and spoily any meal that they are included with. I also think that rhinestone country and western music is the hight of bad taste and my idea of hell would be stuck in a small room with Christians who incessantly play Dolly Parton.
So true. One issue is that the scale that has good on one end and evil on the other, varies in it's definition from observer to observer as it is a subjective description. Secondly, since the terms within a scale are relative, the placement along each scale of individual acts or events is also subjective.
Elegantly expressed.
Good and Evil as expressed by the OP is one of the great myths by which we mislead ourlives.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

arjand wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 5:25 pm Truth has no opposite. (falsity is 'not truth' and nothing by itself)
Untruth - when someone intentionally lies to you - is the opposite of truth, I think.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Sculptor1 »

arjand wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 5:25 pm Truth has no opposite. (falsity is 'not truth' and nothing by itself)
True an falsity exactly like good and evil are judgements we make about things and events.
Neither truth nor falsity are forces of nature in the same way that good and evil are also not.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 5:44 pm True an falsity exactly like good and evil are judgements we make about things and events.
Neither truth nor falsity are forces of nature in the same way that good and evil are also not.
Yes, except that truth and falsity are just a little bit easier to define and describe than good and evil. That latter become almost meaningless when we look below the surface.
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 24th, 2021, 6:53 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 5:44 pm True an falsity exactly like good and evil are judgements we make about things and events.
Neither truth nor falsity are forces of nature in the same way that good and evil are also not.
Yes, except that truth and falsity are just a little bit easier to define and describe than good and evil. That latter become almost meaningless when we look below the surface.
True enough we can even engineer the facts and definitions to create our own truths and falsehoods, such as 2+2=4, and 2+2=5
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Re: Is Good Stronger Than Evil?

Post by JackDaydream »

polargirl wrote: June 19th, 2021, 11:00 pm Almost every religious philosopher states that good is stronger than evil. '
I think that your question is extremely interesting. I am not sure that is possible to know for certain because we are talking about possible metaphysical realities beyond the scope of our own minds. I believe that good and evil are polarities, but it does depend partly on the system or framework in which we view these. Christians believe in God, as do people in many other religious faiths.
Alternatively, there are other perspectives on opposites, including Freud's philosophy of Eros and Thanatos. So, how we view the opposition or balance between good and evil, and which is stronger depends on our wider philosophy viewpoint. But, I do believe that our own personal sense of whether good is stronger than evil that is a basis for why we choose to adopt a specific system of philosophy and for why we may change to a different one.
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