Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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3017Metaphysician
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Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

I have been inspired by some recent discussions from various philosophy forums regarding independent existence, and wanted to see what other philosophy might be germane. Starting with using basic reason, physicist Paul Davies writes (from The Mind of God/The Mystery at the End of the Universe):

It may seem as if the only alternatives are an infinite tower of turtles or the existence of an ultimate super turtle, the explanation for which lies within itself [mathematics/logical necessity/Ontological argument]. …Wheeler rejects completely the notion of eternal laws: The laws of physics cannot have existed from everlasting to everlasting. They must have come into being at the big bang. So, rather than appeal to timeless transcendent laws to bring the universe into being, Wheeler prefers …[PAP].

…. arrangements are founded on the assumption of human rationality: that it is legitimate to seek “explainations” for things, and that we truly understand something only when it is explained. Yet it has to be admitted that our concept of rational explanation probably derives from our observations of the world and our evolutionary inheritance. Is it clear that this provides adequate guidance when we are tangling with ultimate questions? Might it not be the case that the reason for existence has no explanation in the usual sense? This does not mean the universe is absurd or meaningless, only that an understanding of its existence and properties lie outside the usual categories of rational human thought.



With that, I was thinking about what transcends human thought, and how the notion of transcendence itself (Kant/Schop transcendental idealism) implies some ‘sense’ (pardon the pun) or conception of independent existence, much like how some physicist’s think about the laws of physics & nature (unchanging mathematical truths) existing independent of the human mind (?). I think Platonism also applies here... .

And also, much like the analogy of temporal time presumably starting at the big bang, and eternal time existing in eternity where at the speed of light time ceases to exist. And in theory a novel non-material consciousness has entered eternity as time is now infinite. (The past, present and future are all one at the speed of light.) Then, I thought about Schop’s the World as Will philosophy and how our conscious will (to live) itself, cannot be explained physically (versus Darwinian instinct).

Since there are other theories and philosophy that might be able to offer explanations for similar phenomena or questions that even hint to metaphysics and the nature of reality, I analogized to the foregoing comments about the limits of human reason, and wondered what the significance or implications of Glossolalia (speak-in-tongues) might be (even though it comes across as nonsense). As a musician, I can interperate that as maybe improvisation where the music just comes out free-form… .

Is that a phenomenon, where if nothing else, does exist, and further suggests another logically possible world with its own set of logic and language? Is that a phenomenal manifestation of what Kant referred to as a noumenal world-concept or view? Cosmologically, what kind of logic accounts for something outside of time to cause time itself (temporal v. eternal)? How does the concepts of logical necessity (mathematical truths/logic) and logically possible worlds fit into a proposed philosophy of Glossolalia?

Metaphorically, maybe Glossolalia is a kind of euphemism or cosmological language for some notion of turtle-talk :razz: I already see some paradox relative to human thinking and the whole idea of logically possible worlds and Multiverse theories, but would like to get some other free-form thoughts on the matter. I suppose some things in life are no less absurd than paradox itself but am not sure. .. .
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by Sculptor1 »

It might help you to know that Glossolalia is exactly nonsense.
Tapes and transcripts have been looked at.
From personal experience the speakers of tongues and their co-prayer meeting buddies claimed that it was a form of ancient Hebrew or Aramaic.
In fact it is technically what is known as gibberish.
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Thanks for the reply!

Do you think it's similar to some philosophical gibberish? If not why not?
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Is it "independent existence" or "Glossolalia" that you want to discuss? I can't quite see the connection between the two...? Or is it just about turtles? 😉
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 10th, 2021, 8:42 am Is it "independent existence" or "Glossolalia" that you want to discuss? I can't quite see the connection between the two...? Or is it just about turtles? 😉
Thanks for your reply!

Yes, all of the above. Please share any and all thoughts. There is no agenda here...

( I'm wondering what is causing this phenomenon.)
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by Protagoras »

@3017Metaphysician
Just a quick comment. Standard logic or language breaks down at certain levels.

If one doesn't believe in eternity then space and time make no sense.

I've always said poetry is the special logic/ language that fully explains/ expresses eternity,the origins of things and the human condition.

Maybe glossalia can be related to this poetic inspiration sometimes.
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 10th, 2021, 8:42 am Is it "independent existence" or "Glossolalia" that you want to discuss? I can't quite see the connection between the two...? Or is it just about turtles? 😉
3017Metaphysician wrote: July 11th, 2021, 8:32 am Thanks for your reply!

Yes, all of the above. Please share any and all thoughts. There is no agenda here...

( I'm wondering what is causing this phenomenon.)
You're welcome to the reply. 😉 But I wonder, if there is no agenda here, what is the question that you hope we might address in this topic? And finally, what is the "phenomenon" you refer to?
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Protagoras wrote: July 12th, 2021, 12:23 am @3017Metaphysician
Just a quick comment. Standard logic or language breaks down at certain levels.

If one doesn't believe in eternity then space and time make no sense.

I've always said poetry is the special logic/ language that fully explains/ expresses eternity,the origins of things and the human condition.

Maybe glossalia can be related to this poetic inspiration sometimes.
Hi Protagoras! Good to see you (I've been resurrected too :D ).

I agree, standard logic/language breaks down at certain levels. That reminds me of the infamous William James quote:

Philosophy lives in words, but truth and fact well up into our lives in ways that exceed verbal formulation. There is in the living act of perception always something that glimmers and twinkles and will not be caught, and for which reflection comes too late. No one knows this as well as the philosopher.


Though that can be interpreted as 'ineffable experiences', someone might wonder if a truth-oriented philosopher of language might consider whether a meaningless sentence can be true or false, or whether sentences can express propositions about things that do or do not exist, rather than the way sentences are used. Accordingly, you have paradox with self referential propositions in a priori logic (liars paradox), and symbolic representations in modal logic. Then, you have the language of music and those symbols (musical notation) that are used. And finally, as I mentioned in the OP, you have the phenomenon of musical improvisation where music just 'comes-out'.( I know that from personal experience.) Is poetry perhaps similar to some of those things in some way?

Good to see you again!
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 12th, 2021, 9:42 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 10th, 2021, 8:42 am Is it "independent existence" or "Glossolalia" that you want to discuss? I can't quite see the connection between the two...? Or is it just about turtles? 😉
3017Metaphysician wrote: July 11th, 2021, 8:32 am Thanks for your reply!

Yes, all of the above. Please share any and all thoughts. There is no agenda here...

( I'm wondering what is causing this phenomenon.)
You're welcome to the reply. 😉 But I wonder, if there is no agenda here, what is the question that you hope we might address in this topic? And finally, what is the "phenomenon" you refer to?
Thanks for the reply PC!

For your convenience, here are/were my questions from the OP:
Is that a phenomenon, where if nothing else, does exist, and further suggests another logically possible world with its own set of logic and language? Is that a phenomenal manifestation of what Kant referred to as a noumenal world-concept or view? Cosmologically, what kind of logic accounts for something outside of time to cause time itself (temporal v. eternal)? How does the concepts of logical necessity (mathematical truths/logic) and logically possible worlds fit into a proposed philosophy of Glossolalia?
As addressed to Protagoras, phenomena of course can range from ineffable experiences, to unexplained scientific phenomena including documented studies in cognitive science and medical science as well. With respect to Cosmology and independent existence, one of many questions I have is, if the BB presupposes a unity of opposite model for its origin(s), do you think that that implies something outside of time which in-turn started time itself (temporal time v. eternal time)? For instance, we know that general relativity taught us that objects moving at the speed of light give us a glimpse of eternity (see OP). As an antecedent or in a regressive kind of way, we can either presuppose an infinite tower of turtles or one super turtle. In that instance, either way, there remains unexplained phenomena.

In short, I'm trying to look at some possible analogy's to a something that has caused something else to come into existence. Any and all thoughts are welcome.
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by Protagoras »

3017Metaphysician wrote: July 12th, 2021, 11:02 am
Protagoras wrote: July 12th, 2021, 12:23 am @3017Metaphysician
Just a quick comment. Standard logic or language breaks down at certain levels.

If one doesn't believe in eternity then space and time make no sense.

I've always said poetry is the special logic/ language that fully explains/ expresses eternity,the origins of things and the human condition.

Maybe glossalia can be related to this poetic inspiration sometimes.
Hi Protagoras! Good to see you (I've been resurrected too :D ).

I agree, standard logic/language breaks down at certain levels. That reminds me of the infamous William James quote:

Philosophy lives in words, but truth and fact well up into our lives in ways that exceed verbal formulation. There is in the living act of perception always something that glimmers and twinkles and will not be caught, and for which reflection comes too late. No one knows this as well as the philosopher.


Though that can be interpreted as 'ineffable experiences', someone might wonder if a truth-oriented philosopher of language might consider whether a meaningless sentence can be true or false, or whether sentences can express propositions about things that do or do not exist, rather than the way sentences are used. Accordingly, you have paradox with self referential propositions in a priori logic (liars paradox), and symbolic representations in modal logic. Then, you have the language of music and those symbols (musical notation) that are used. And finally, as I mentioned in the OP, you have the phenomenon of musical improvisation where music just 'comes-out'.( I know that from personal experience.) Is poetry perhaps similar to some of those things in some way?

Good to see you again!
Good to see you as well!

I've begun to see that the reason paradoxes of logic and causation occur is because "standardised" logic/language is restrictive and dogmatic.

The concepts of eternity and infinite is essential to language.
As are the concepts soul,intention,teleogy,will,desire. But modern science and a lot of philosophy throws these concepts away,thus you get antinomies and Contradictions on even everyday experience.

Poetry is that language which is unrestricted and comes from one's own essence,and maybe some forms of glossolia are non discursive expressions of truth from one's soul/subconscious.

The same is true of that musical inspiration you allude to.

If language is restricted then thought is restricted,and will always be contradictory and unable to explain phenomenon.
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Protagoras wrote: July 12th, 2021, 2:44 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: July 12th, 2021, 11:02 am
Protagoras wrote: July 12th, 2021, 12:23 am @3017Metaphysician
Just a quick comment. Standard logic or language breaks down at certain levels.

If one doesn't believe in eternity then space and time make no sense.

I've always said poetry is the special logic/ language that fully explains/ expresses eternity,the origins of things and the human condition.

Maybe glossalia can be related to this poetic inspiration sometimes.
Hi Protagoras! Good to see you (I've been resurrected too :D ).

I agree, standard logic/language breaks down at certain levels. That reminds me of the infamous William James quote:

Philosophy lives in words, but truth and fact well up into our lives in ways that exceed verbal formulation. There is in the living act of perception always something that glimmers and twinkles and will not be caught, and for which reflection comes too late. No one knows this as well as the philosopher.


Though that can be interpreted as 'ineffable experiences', someone might wonder if a truth-oriented philosopher of language might consider whether a meaningless sentence can be true or false, or whether sentences can express propositions about things that do or do not exist, rather than the way sentences are used. Accordingly, you have paradox with self referential propositions in a priori logic (liars paradox), and symbolic representations in modal logic. Then, you have the language of music and those symbols (musical notation) that are used. And finally, as I mentioned in the OP, you have the phenomenon of musical improvisation where music just 'comes-out'.( I know that from personal experience.) Is poetry perhaps similar to some of those things in some way?

Good to see you again!
Good to see you as well!

I've begun to see that the reason paradoxes of logic and causation occur is because "standardised" logic/language is restrictive and dogmatic.

The concepts of eternity and infinite is essential to language.
As are the concepts soul,intention,teleogy,will,desire. But modern science and a lot of philosophy throws these concepts away,thus you get antinomies and Contradictions on even everyday experience.

Poetry is that language which is unrestricted and comes from one's own essence,and maybe some forms of glossolia are non discursive expressions of truth from one's soul/subconscious.

The same is true of that musical inspiration you allude to.

If language is restricted then thought is restricted,and will always be contradictory and unable to explain phenomenon.
Protagoras!

I think that those concepts you mentioned like the will & desire, once again, involve some sort of abstract explanation and/or description. For instance, how does one describe their will to live, love, have sad/joyful experiences, so on and so forth. Describing the feeling of the color red fits into that category, I believe. And, so to be clear, it also seems mathematics and music itself, share in this world of abstract existence. As an ancillary note, neither or perhaps most of which have any real Darwinian survival advantages... .
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by Protagoras »

@3017Metaphysician

With regard to the "ineffable",I would clarify by saying,if I say to you I'm currently drinking a lovely smooth delicious cup of coffee,then I am expressing the experience of drinking that coffee in a poetical way,and so you appreciate the existential feeling of me drinking,not just a philosophical mechanical description of cups and mouths!
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by Protagoras »

3017Metaphysician wrote: July 12th, 2021, 3:04 pm
Protagoras wrote: July 12th, 2021, 2:44 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: July 12th, 2021, 11:02 am
Protagoras wrote: July 12th, 2021, 12:23 am @3017Metaphysician
Just a quick comment. Standard logic or language breaks down at certain levels.

If one doesn't believe in eternity then space and time make no sense.

I've always said poetry is the special logic/ language that fully explains/ expresses eternity,the origins of things and the human condition.

Maybe glossalia can be related to this poetic inspiration sometimes.
Hi Protagoras! Good to see you (I've been resurrected too :D ).

I agree, standard logic/language breaks down at certain levels. That reminds me of the infamous William James quote:

Philosophy lives in words, but truth and fact well up into our lives in ways that exceed verbal formulation. There is in the living act of perception always something that glimmers and twinkles and will not be caught, and for which reflection comes too late. No one knows this as well as the philosopher.


Though that can be interpreted as 'ineffable experiences', someone might wonder if a truth-oriented philosopher of language might consider whether a meaningless sentence can be true or false, or whether sentences can express propositions about things that do or do not exist, rather than the way sentences are used. Accordingly, you have paradox with self referential propositions in a priori logic (liars paradox), and symbolic representations in modal logic. Then, you have the language of music and those symbols (musical notation) that are used. And finally, as I mentioned in the OP, you have the phenomenon of musical improvisation where music just 'comes-out'.( I know that from personal experience.) Is poetry perhaps similar to some of those things in some way?

Good to see you again!
Good to see you as well!

I've begun to see that the reason paradoxes of logic and causation occur is because "standardised" logic/language is restrictive and dogmatic.

The concepts of eternity and infinite is essential to language.
As are the concepts soul,intention,teleogy,will,desire. But modern science and a lot of philosophy throws these concepts away,thus you get antinomies and Contradictions on even everyday experience.

Poetry is that language which is unrestricted and comes from one's own essence,and maybe some forms of glossolia are non discursive expressions of truth from one's soul/subconscious.

The same is true of that musical inspiration you allude to.

If language is restricted then thought is restricted,and will always be contradictory and unable to explain phenomenon.
Protagoras!

I think that those concepts you mentioned like the will & desire, once again, involve some sort of abstract explanation and/or description. For instance, how does one describe their will to live, love, have sad/joyful experiences, so on and so forth. Describing the feeling of the color red fits into that category, I believe. And, so to be clear, it also seems mathematics and music itself, share in this world of abstract existence. As an ancillary note, neither or perhaps most of which have any real Darwinian survival advantages... .
Well,to me will and desire are obvious things like the color red, needing no justification or further explanation. They are axiomatic.
And in fact will and desire are even clearer than the color red,because we experience and use them constantly.
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Hey P!

Describing and explaining the Will is difficult. When you say 'clearer' what do you mean? . The reason I ask is that the will/desire itself, is much like the aforementioned features of conscious existence wherein they can't be completely described in a non-transcendent way or physical way. They or it is abstract. For instance, what is this energy force that causes one to want to live in the first place(?). The will to be, or to live, seems outside of our control and almost instinctual or intrinsic to our way of Being. At the same time, the complexity of volitional existence puts instinct at a subordinate position or feature to that particular way of being. Meaning, human's can make a choice to live or die, should they feel so inclined. Instinct can't prevent us from making those kinds of choices.

Back to transcendence, the causes and reasons associated with the will to live seem beyond emergent instinct. Perhaps it's like saying something beyond time caused time itself to come into existence (temporal time v. eternal time). In that sense, it's not so' clear'.
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Glossolalia, Transcendence and Philosophical cosmology

Post by Protagoras »

3017Metaphysician wrote: July 13th, 2021, 12:34 pm Hey P!

Describing and explaining the Will is difficult. When you say 'clearer' what do you mean? . The reason I ask is that the will/desire itself, is much like the aforementioned features of conscious existence wherein they can't be completely described in a non-transcendent way or physical way. They or it is abstract. For instance, what is this energy force that causes one to want to live in the first place(?). The will to be, or to live, seems outside of our control and almost instinctual or intrinsic to our way of Being. At the same time, the complexity of volitional existence puts instinct at a subordinate position or feature to that particular way of being. Meaning, human's can make a choice to live or die, should they feel so inclined. Instinct can't prevent us from making those kinds of choices.

Back to transcendence, the causes and reasons associated with the will to live seem beyond emergent instinct. Perhaps it's like saying something beyond time caused time itself to come into existence (temporal time v. eternal time). In that sense, it's not so' clear'.

I mean it's clear in that it's absolutely obvious that what I am is will/desire. I have never felt any need to to get into the freewill debate seriously as your will is a feeling,and for anyone to deny that seems ludicrous to me. It's like denying pain.

I don't make a distinction between will and instincts. Instincts are just a type of will that's very quick. ( like reflexes.)

I see time as just change and movement,and change is not "caused",it is the intrinsic nature of life.
I don't see why there needs to be an unmoved mover to start the process. I see the process,life as eternal movement and intrinsic.
There is no absolute stillness,just degrees of movement.

Why I think logic goes wrong is that it doesn't take account of eternity and infinity. Both cannot be caused,they just are.
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