Sentience. What is it?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Sentience. What is it?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones. They may be at different levels of awareness, but they are all within the same Consciousness, the Oneness. Hinduism is mostly concerned with humans when discussing philosophy, in particular, Advaita or non-duality, although non-humans are also considered sentient. Budhists and Jains include all things that exist as being sentient.
Does this make sense, a concept that can be understood and accepted? How does it differ from Western philosophy?
Thank you.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
3017Metaphysician
Posts: 1621
Joined: July 9th, 2021, 8:59 am

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones. They may be at different levels of awareness, but they are all within the same Consciousness, the Oneness. Hinduism is mostly concerned with humans when discussing philosophy, in particular, Advaita or non-duality, although non-humans are also considered sentient. Budhists and Jains include all things that exist as being sentient.
Does this make sense, a concept that can be understood and accepted? How does it differ from Western philosophy?
Thank you.
Taken from William Barrett's, Irrational Man:

"St. Thomas, the Intellectualist, had argued that the intellect in man is prior to the will because the intellect determines the will, since we can desire only what we know. Scotus, the Voluntarist, replied that the will determines what ideas the intellect turns to, and thus in the end determines what the intellect comes to know."


- Voluntarism: in the modern metaphysical sense is a theory which explains the universe as emanating ultimately from some form of will. In a broader psychological sense, the term is applied to any theory which gives prominence to will (in opposition to intellect ). In this latter sense, but not in the former, the philosophy of Augustine, Anselm, William of Occam, and Scotus may be styled Voluntarism.

- Voluntarism is the theory that God or the ultimate nature of reality is to be conceived as some form of will (or conation). This theory is contrasted to intellectualism, which gives primacy to God's reason.

-According to intellectualism, choices of the will result from that which the intellect recognizes as good; the will itself is determined. For voluntarism, by contrast, it is the will which determines which objects are good, and the will itself is indetermined. Concerning the nature of heaven, intellectualists followed Aristotle's lead by seeing the final state of happiness as a state of contemplation. Voluntarism, by contrast, maintains that final happiness is an activity, specifically that of love.

-19th century voluntarism has its origin in Kant, particularly his doctrine of the "primacy of the practical over the pure reason." Intellectually, humans are incapable of knowing ultimate reality, but this need not and must not interfere with the duty of acting as though the spiritual character of this reality were certain.

I would like to propose that the metaphysical will (to live and survive) precedes the ability to reason and intellectualize from our senses (sense data). Consider why an individual wills themselves to live in the first place. Intellect seems to be subordinate to a greater feeling and/or that impulse of the Will. The will, may very well be this 'dumb and blind feeling' that existentially, just is. It just is, and exists a priori. It's fixed and innate to Being. Much like emergent instinct.

A practical example is the idea associated with the feeling of interconnect-ness viz. relationships. Human's have a need to be with other's and feel happy. Cognitive science says that it is only through other's that we achieve our goals( to fulfill purpose). Someone had to build the house we live in, or assemble the toys we have, make the cloths we wear, farm the food we eat, ad nauseum. We are interconnected, which is not too different than the idea of Love itself; to love ourselves and to love each other. And if some of these needs are not fulfilled, one may will themselves to die. Although that would indeed suggest that reason and intellect is preeminent or precedes the Will, it doesn't square with our intrinsic need or impulse to be, and seek happiness.

This seems much like asking the prisoner in solitary confinement with a death sentence and no appeals/parole, why he/she continues to will to live. Is it a feeling of hope? Hope for what? Metaphysically. what is hope, in and of itself? A feeling of some sort?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by Sculptor1 »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones. They may be at different levels of awareness, but they are all within the same Consciousness, the Oneness. Hinduism is mostly concerned with humans when discussing philosophy, in particular, Advaita or non-duality, although non-humans are also considered sentient. Budhists and Jains include all things that exist as being sentient.
Does this make sense, a concept that can be understood and accepted? How does it differ from Western philosophy?
Thank you.
Rocks are not sentient.
It is a complete misunderstanding of sentience and a denial of the remarkable emergence on earth of this phenomenon.
To even atrribute sentience to plants is a complete travesty of the meaning of the word.
I can only conclude that "Samasara" is something entirely different.
ANd hey presto when I look it up we find Samsara means something utterly different.
Last edited by Sculptor1 on July 23rd, 2021, 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
popeye1945
Posts: 1085
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by popeye1945 »

What is sentience? Panphyicism is I think what you have in mind I think, find link below.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pa ... ORM=HDRSC3
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by Count Lucanor »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones.
The word "so" might have given the impression that what came next was the logical conclusion from the first statement, but obviously it was not. And so, we are left wondering from where the Eastern thinkers took the idea that plants, rocks and stones are subject to feelings, sensations, suffering and rebirth. That is an extraordinaire claim.
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am Does this make sense, a concept that can be understood and accepted? How does it differ from Western philosophy?
Thank you.
No, it doesn't make any sense, but I can guarantee you that many Western philosophers are willing to entertain that and even much more nonsense.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 380
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by mystery »

In the past, very good-sized businesses existed around sentient rocks.
https://www.petrock.com/

Seriously it comes down to what can we perceive. Our senses are not enough to perceive but only a small amount of the entire universe even if we are able to reach it all. The question would have a different answer millions of years from now, after that time we would know more. Perhaps we are not as important as we think and don't know it.

These people support the idea of the great spirit and take it seriously, Native Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_mythology
User avatar
3017Metaphysician
Posts: 1621
Joined: July 9th, 2021, 8:59 am

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Count Lucanor wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 6:45 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones.
The word "so" might have given the impression that what came next was the logical conclusion from the first statement, but obviously it was not. And so, we are left wondering from where the Eastern thinkers took the idea that plants, rocks and stones are subject to feelings, sensations, suffering and rebirth. That is an extraordinaire claim.
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am Does this make sense, a concept that can be understood and accepted? How does it differ from Western philosophy?
Thank you.
No, it doesn't make any sense, but I can guarantee you that many Western philosophers are willing to entertain that and even much more nonsense.
News flash. Human sentience and intellect is an insoluble mix that is logically impossible to describe or explain. Much like the subconscious mind and the conscious mind working together. Hence, our own existence is not logical.

Philosophy itself lives in the logic of language and words. But existence itself, is something beyond pure reason. These things 'not making sense' or perceived as nonsense; you should embrace them :)
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Count Lucanor wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 6:45 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones.
The word "so" might have given the impression that what came next was the logical conclusion from the first statement, but obviously it was not. And so, we are left wondering from where the Eastern thinkers took the idea that plants, rocks and stones are subject to feelings, sensations, suffering and rebirth. That is an extraordinaire claim.
I am sorry that ‘so’ caused some consternation :shock:
The idea behind it is the concept of karma and rebirth, although i dont know if Jains and Budhists believe in rebirth. In any case all of what we see as the world, are in essence conciousness, one single Conciousness. The form each takes is transient, subject to decay and death. Conciousness is eternal and is all there is. Everything is connected and are all within the single Conciousness.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by Count Lucanor »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 24th, 2021, 8:24 am
Count Lucanor wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 6:45 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones.
The word "so" might have given the impression that what came next was the logical conclusion from the first statement, but obviously it was not. And so, we are left wondering from where the Eastern thinkers took the idea that plants, rocks and stones are subject to feelings, sensations, suffering and rebirth. That is an extraordinaire claim.
I am sorry that ‘so’ caused some consternation :shock:
The idea behind it is the concept of karma and rebirth, although i dont know if Jains and Budhists believe in rebirth. In any case all of what we see as the world, are in essence conciousness, one single Conciousness. The form each takes is transient, subject to decay and death. Conciousness is eternal and is all there is. Everything is connected and are all within the single Conciousness.
All evidence amounts to the opposite, but I'm sure everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want to believe, either gods, eternal consciousness or dragons.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by Atla »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones. They may be at different levels of awareness, but they are all within the same Consciousness, the Oneness. Hinduism is mostly concerned with humans when discussing philosophy, in particular, Advaita or non-duality, although non-humans are also considered sentient. Budhists and Jains include all things that exist as being sentient.
Does this make sense, a concept that can be understood and accepted? How does it differ from Western philosophy?
Thank you.
Eastern thought gets non-duality right in general as opposed to Western philosophy, yes there is "one Consciousness" which is the same as existence, as the world. In that sense, everything is sentient. But the normal meaning of sentience is roughly: having/being an individual mind, obviously rocks aren't sentient in that sense.

The karmic cycle / suffering / rebirth etc. is entirely nonsense and not needed for the above to be true.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8232
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones. They may be at different levels of awareness, but they are all within the same Consciousness, the Oneness. Hinduism is mostly concerned with humans when discussing philosophy, in particular, Advaita or non-duality, although non-humans are also considered sentient. Budhists and Jains include all things that exist as being sentient.
Does this make sense, a concept that can be understood and accepted? How does it differ from Western philosophy?
Thank you.

Sculptor1 wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 12:00 pm Rocks are not sentient.
It is a complete misunderstanding of sentience and a denial of the remarkable emergence on earth of this phenomenon.
To even attribute sentience to plants is a complete travesty of the meaning of the word.

General comment, not personally aimed at Sculptor1, but at him and all others who voice similar views regularly.

Why is it that philosophers have such huge difficulties when asked to generalise and broaden their thinking? Is flexibility of thought so difficult, or is it that this flexibility is considered ideologically unsound, I wonder?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 24th, 2021, 12:38 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones. They may be at different levels of awareness, but they are all within the same Consciousness, the Oneness. Hinduism is mostly concerned with humans when discussing philosophy, in particular, Advaita or non-duality, although non-humans are also considered sentient. Budhists and Jains include all things that exist as being sentient.
Does this make sense, a concept that can be understood and accepted? How does it differ from Western philosophy?
Thank you.

Sculptor1 wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 12:00 pm Rocks are not sentient.
It is a complete misunderstanding of sentience and a denial of the remarkable emergence on earth of this phenomenon.
To even attribute sentience to plants is a complete travesty of the meaning of the word.

General comment, not personally aimed at Sculptor1, but at him and all others who voice similar views regularly.

Why is it that philosophers have such huge difficulties when asked to generalise and broaden their thinking? Is flexibility of thought so difficult, or is it that this flexibility is considered ideologically unsound, I wonder?
I think the attribute of an open mind is great untill all the reason falls out of it.
Rather than pretend that you were not making a "personal comment", why do you not just say how a "rock is conscious" is demonstrable in some way?
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6013
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by Consul »

The word "sentience" is ambiguous between "(the capacity for) sensory perception" and "(the capacity for) sensory experience". I call sentience in the first sense "objective sentience" and sentience in the second sense "subjective sentience". Objective sentience is independent of subjective sentience, so sensory perception without sensory experience (= subjective sensations/sense-impressions) is possible. Perceiving or perceptually conscious organisms aren't necessarily experiencing or experientially (phenomenally) conscious organisms!
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6013
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:18 pm The word "sentience" is ambiguous between "(the capacity for) sensory perception" and "(the capacity for) sensory experience". I call sentience in the first sense "objective sentience" and sentience in the second sense "subjective sentience".
objective sentience = sensory percipience
subjective sentience = sensory experience
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
UniversalAlien
Posts: 1577
Joined: March 20th, 2012, 9:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Sentience. What is it?

Post by UniversalAlien »

AmericanKestrel wrote: July 24th, 2021, 8:24 am
Count Lucanor wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 6:45 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 9:54 am In Eastern thought sentience is understood as all beings that are subject to feelings and sensations, suffering, and rebirth. In sum, it is called Samsara. So this includes not just humans, but also animals, plants, even rocks and stones.
The word "so" might have given the impression that what came next was the logical conclusion from the first statement, but obviously it was not. And so, we are left wondering from where the Eastern thinkers took the idea that plants, rocks and stones are subject to feelings, sensations, suffering and rebirth. That is an extraordinaire claim.
I am sorry that ‘so’ caused some consternation :shock:
The idea behind it is the concept of karma and rebirth, although i dont know if Jains and Budhists believe in rebirth. In any case all of what we see as the world, are in essence conciousness, one single Conciousness. The form each takes is transient, subject to decay and death. Conciousness is eternal and is all there is. Everything is connected and are all within the single Conciousness.
YES :!:

Sentience is a relative term and may have different definitions and meanings

- But the 'matrix' of all remains the same.

Form Max Planck world famous physicist and founder of Quantum Mechanics:

“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness.
We cannot get behind consciousness.
Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”
― Max Planck
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021