Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: July 27th, 2021, 1:58 pm As we’ve all witnessed debates over the existence and relevance of God within society boils down to those who blindly believe and those who blindly deny.
I think you are getting off the a false start here.
It seems a classic strawman fallacy.
For most of us the existence of god was taken as read, like the tooth fairy and Santa. People making the journey to atheism usually have a job of unpicking the assumptions by clashing against obvious fallacies which the blind faithers confront them with.
I would imagine that many who beleive in god would reject the blind faith attribution, but I cannot speak for them.
I have a range of very specific and rational reasons why I have rejected the idea of god, and I think most atheists have had to make some sort of journey from the cluthes of their infantile theism. This road is the raod to knowledge paved with evidence and reason. Faith, belief and God cannot walk that road, and I know that because my eyes are OPEN.
On what basis do you deny the ineffable ONE described by Plotinus as the source of our universe?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: August 11th, 2021, 6:41 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: July 27th, 2021, 1:58 pm As we’ve all witnessed debates over the existence and relevance of God within society boils down to those who blindly believe and those who blindly deny.
I think you are getting off the a false start here.
It seems a classic strawman fallacy.
For most of us the existence of god was taken as read, like the tooth fairy and Santa. People making the journey to atheism usually have a job of unpicking the assumptions by clashing against obvious fallacies which the blind faithers confront them with.
I would imagine that many who beleive in god would reject the blind faith attribution, but I cannot speak for them.
I have a range of very specific and rational reasons why I have rejected the idea of god, and I think most atheists have had to make some sort of journey from the cluthes of their infantile theism. This road is the raod to knowledge paved with evidence and reason. Faith, belief and God cannot walk that road, and I know that because my eyes are OPEN.
On what basis do you deny the ineffable ONE described by Plotinus as the source of our universe?
Another error made in the OP is ignoring the millions, maybe billions, of those who accept that they are not equipped to know the ultimate nature of the universe, and that there's not enough information about it at this stage to even make an informed guess. Thus, theists and atheists are each guilty of claiming knowledge of things that they cannot know. I suspect that is why they ignore and sideline agnostics; our views are inconvenient and too logical for comfort.

It's okay not to know. Nobody does, regardless of their affectations. Pretending to understand what reality is all about can be politically and socially usueful. Philosophically, though, certainty claims are only interesting in terms of the psychology, being obvious social and political display behaviours rather than an earnest attempt to understand the nature of reality.

It's easier to file reality into a black box - be it "God" or "matter" - and be done with it. For those not worried about solving life, the universe and everything, pragmatic black boxing of reality might save mental energy, but it's less fun than considering the possibilities.
PoeticUniverse
Posts: 638
Joined: April 4th, 2015, 7:25 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 4:36 pm This road is the road to knowledge paved with evidence and reason. Faith, belief and God cannot walk that road, and I know that because my eyes are OPEN.
Inspiring…

‘Faith’ walks the Road of the Invisibles,
Led by its High Hopes, Desires, and Wishes,
Which is really the Path of the Unknown
Since the ‘Unseen’ is a Speculation.

‘Trust’ walks the Road of What’s Happened as Known,
Such as the Steps of our Universe grown
From the Chaos after its Beginning,
We understanding most of its History.

It all gets down to Probability.
What’s more likely, the observed Progression
Of the Simplest to the Composites of
The Atomic Elements made by Stars,

To molecules to cells to lower life,
To more and more complexity, on to
Higher life with systems evolving to
Higher brains then to us human mammals,

Or that the Ultimate Complexity
Of a God-Person-Mind had to e’er be,
Fully intact and All Knowledgeable,
As First and Fundamental, ‘fore all else,
As a ‘Supernatural Miracle’?
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7089
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Sculptor1 »

Nick_A wrote: August 11th, 2021, 6:41 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: July 27th, 2021, 1:58 pm As we’ve all witnessed debates over the existence and relevance of God within society boils down to those who blindly believe and those who blindly deny.
I think you are getting off the a false start here.
It seems a classic strawman fallacy.
For most of us the existence of god was taken as read, like the tooth fairy and Santa. People making the journey to atheism usually have a job of unpicking the assumptions by clashing against obvious fallacies which the blind faithers confront them with.
I would imagine that many who beleive in god would reject the blind faith attribution, but I cannot speak for them.
I have a range of very specific and rational reasons why I have rejected the idea of god, and I think most atheists have had to make some sort of journey from the cluthes of their infantile theism. This road is the raod to knowledge paved with evidence and reason. Faith, belief and God cannot walk that road, and I know that because my eyes are OPEN.
On what basis do you deny the ineffable ONE described by Plotinus as the source of our universe?
Plotinus was expressing an opinion. Do you know the meaning of fallacy argumentum ad verecundiam?
And if "he" is ineffible how can you talk about "him", since ineffable means "too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words."??
So I deny all things with the adjective ineffable. As Wittengenstein said; Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7089
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Sculptor1 »

PoeticUniverse wrote: August 12th, 2021, 12:04 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 4:36 pm This road is the road to knowledge paved with evidence and reason. Faith, belief and God cannot walk that road, and I know that because my eyes are OPEN.
Inspiring…

‘Faith’ walks the Road of the Invisibles,
Led by its High Hopes, Desires, and Wishes,
Which is really the Path of the Unknown
Since the ‘Unseen’ is a Speculation.

‘Trust’ walks the Road of What’s Happened as Known,
Such as the Steps of our Universe grown
From the Chaos after its Beginning,
We understanding most of its History.

It all gets down to Probability.
What’s more likely, the observed Progression
Of the Simplest to the Composites of
The Atomic Elements made by Stars,

To molecules to cells to lower life,
To more and more complexity, on to
Higher life with systems evolving to
Higher brains then to us human mammals,

Or that the Ultimate Complexity
Of a God-Person-Mind had to e’er be,
Fully intact and All Knowledgeable,
As First and Fundamental, ‘fore all else,
As a ‘Supernatural Miracle’?
No.
"supernatural miracle" falls down on two counts. 1) it is a tautology, 2) and a contradiction.
Nature encompasses all, so that things that happen are natural.
The idea of a miricle is a thing that happens outisde of nature; no such thing is possible since nature is nominated as what is.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Nick_A »

Sy Borg wrote: August 11th, 2021, 9:19 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 11th, 2021, 6:41 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: July 27th, 2021, 1:58 pm As we’ve all witnessed debates over the existence and relevance of God within society boils down to those who blindly believe and those who blindly deny.
I think you are getting off the a false start here.
It seems a classic strawman fallacy.
For most of us the existence of god was taken as read, like the tooth fairy and Santa. People making the journey to atheism usually have a job of unpicking the assumptions by clashing against obvious fallacies which the blind faithers confront them with.
I would imagine that many who beleive in god would reject the blind faith attribution, but I cannot speak for them.
I have a range of very specific and rational reasons why I have rejected the idea of god, and I think most atheists have had to make some sort of journey from the cluthes of their infantile theism. This road is the raod to knowledge paved with evidence and reason. Faith, belief and God cannot walk that road, and I know that because my eyes are OPEN.
On what basis do you deny the ineffable ONE described by Plotinus as the source of our universe?
Another error made in the OP is ignoring the millions, maybe billions, of those who accept that they are not equipped to know the ultimate nature of the universe, and that there's not enough information about it at this stage to even make an informed guess. Thus, theists and atheists are each guilty of claiming knowledge of things that they cannot know. I suspect that is why they ignore and sideline agnostics; our views are inconvenient and too logical for comfort.

It's okay not to know. Nobody does, regardless of their affectations. Pretending to understand what reality is all about can be politically and socially usueful. Philosophically, though, certainty claims are only interesting in terms of the psychology, being obvious social and political display behaviours rather than an earnest attempt to understand the nature of reality.

It's easier to file reality into a black box - be it "God" or "matter" - and be done with it. For those not worried about solving life, the universe and everything, pragmatic black boxing of reality might save mental energy, but it's less fun than considering the possibilities.
Very true. We do not know what to believe and what to deny so belief or denial become emotional decisions that have torn the world apart. Yet somehow person knows there is logic and therefore meaning to the universe and Man's purpose within it.

Some want to go beyond this madness defending emotional blind belief or blind denial and discover that they are third force blind. It is the third force of reconciliation from a higher perspective which awakens a person to the emotional blindness of duality.

Only recently have more people become aware of what it means to be third force blind. It may be that this awakening makes humanity surviving its tendency towards self destruction possible
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
PoeticUniverse
Posts: 638
Joined: April 4th, 2015, 7:25 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 12th, 2021, 3:54 am "supernatural miracle" falls down on two counts. 1) it is a tautology, 2) and a contradiction.
Nature encompasses all, so that things that happen are natural.
The idea of a miricle is a thing that happens outisde of nature; no such thing is possible since nature is nominated as what is.
Good.

The preachers claim ‘perhaps’ as fact and truth.

Their ingrained beliefs the priests’ duly preach,
As if notions were truth and fact to teach.
Oh, cleric, repent; at least say, ‘Have faith’;
Since, of unknowns ne’er shown none can e’er reach.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7089
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Sculptor1 »

PoeticUniverse wrote: August 12th, 2021, 4:53 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 12th, 2021, 3:54 am "supernatural miracle" falls down on two counts. 1) it is a tautology, 2) and a contradiction.
Nature encompasses all, so that things that happen are natural.
The idea of a miricle is a thing that happens outisde of nature; no such thing is possible since nature is nominated as what is.
Good.

The preachers claim ‘perhaps’ as fact and truth.

Their ingrained beliefs the priests’ duly preach,
As if notions were truth and fact to teach.
Oh, cleric, repent; at least say, ‘Have faith’;
Since, of unknowns ne’er shown none can e’er reach.
Yes and the black beasts given their freedom would keep burning people for their "maybe".
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 11:08 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 11th, 2021, 9:19 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 11th, 2021, 6:41 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 4:36 pm

I think you are getting off the a false start here.
It seems a classic strawman fallacy.
For most of us the existence of god was taken as read, like the tooth fairy and Santa. People making the journey to atheism usually have a job of unpicking the assumptions by clashing against obvious fallacies which the blind faithers confront them with.
I would imagine that many who beleive in god would reject the blind faith attribution, but I cannot speak for them.
I have a range of very specific and rational reasons why I have rejected the idea of god, and I think most atheists have had to make some sort of journey from the cluthes of their infantile theism. This road is the raod to knowledge paved with evidence and reason. Faith, belief and God cannot walk that road, and I know that because my eyes are OPEN.
On what basis do you deny the ineffable ONE described by Plotinus as the source of our universe?
Another error made in the OP is ignoring the millions, maybe billions, of those who accept that they are not equipped to know the ultimate nature of the universe, and that there's not enough information about it at this stage to even make an informed guess. Thus, theists and atheists are each guilty of claiming knowledge of things that they cannot know. I suspect that is why they ignore and sideline agnostics; our views are inconvenient and too logical for comfort.

It's okay not to know. Nobody does, regardless of their affectations. Pretending to understand what reality is all about can be politically and socially usueful. Philosophically, though, certainty claims are only interesting in terms of the psychology, being obvious social and political display behaviours rather than an earnest attempt to understand the nature of reality.

It's easier to file reality into a black box - be it "God" or "matter" - and be done with it. For those not worried about solving life, the universe and everything, pragmatic black boxing of reality might save mental energy, but it's less fun than considering the possibilities.
Very true. We do not know what to believe and what to deny so belief or denial become emotional decisions that have torn the world apart. Yet somehow person knows there is logic and therefore meaning to the universe and Man's purpose within it.
No one knows this. That's my point.

Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 11:08 amSome want to go beyond this madness defending emotional blind belief or blind denial and discover that they are third force blind. It is the third force of reconciliation from a higher perspective which awakens a person to the emotional blindness of duality.

Only recently have more people become aware of what it means to be third force blind. It may be that this awakening makes humanity surviving its tendency towards self destruction possible
It's tribal. People band together in groups because that makes them stronger than they would be as individuals. That means adopting the beliefs of the group rather than thinking for oneself.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Nick_A »

Sy
Very true. We do not know what to believe and what to deny so belief or denial become emotional decisions that have torn the world apart. Yet somehow person knows there is logic and therefore meaning to the universe and Man's purpose within it.

No one knows this. That's my point.
Perhaps those beginning to awaken have felt this at the depth of their being as a higher form of knowledge. For example, how did Einstein know the following:
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:08 am
Some want to go beyond this madness defending emotional blind belief or blind denial and discover that they are third force blind. It is the third force of reconciliation from a higher perspective which awakens a person to the emotional blindness of duality.


Only recently have more people become aware of what it means to be third force blind. It may be that this awakening makes humanity surviving its tendency towards self destruction possible

It's tribal. People band together in groups because that makes them stronger than they would be as individuals. That means adopting the beliefs of the group rather than thinking for oneself.
You are describing the collective influence on animal Man. But the purpose of universal philosophy and religion is to awaken animal Man to human potential. Then he can break free of the collective influence and pursue the need for meaning the collective cannot offer.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pm Sy
Very true. We do not know what to believe and what to deny so belief or denial become emotional decisions that have torn the world apart. Yet somehow person knows there is logic and therefore meaning to the universe and Man's purpose within it.

No one knows this. That's my point.
Perhaps those beginning to awaken have felt this at the depth of their being as a higher form of knowledge. For example, how did Einstein know the following:
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
I think this is simply obvious, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. I have been workshopping the idea that humans tend to mistakenly think of themselves as separate from the Earth, living on its surface. The truth is that we are as much part of the Earth as any rock, tree or pocket of air. We live within the Earth rather than on it, within the atmosphere just as a fish lives underwater.

But being alive means being separate too. If one is not separate, then one are not alive as such, just a resource in the environment. Cell walls effectively make a philosophical statement that there exists both an inside and an outside.

In terms of evolution, thinking of oneself as separate and operating on that assumption has proved to be effective; there's billions of us. Separatist thinking helps life forms stay in one piece, spurring vigorous defences against potential disintegration. Yet, as per the Einstein quote, the reality is that we are both separate and part of a greater conglomerate. "A part and yet apart".

Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmSome want to go beyond this madness defending emotional blind belief or blind denial and discover that they are third force blind. It is the third force of reconciliation from a higher perspective which awakens a person to the emotional blindness of duality.[/i]

Only recently have more people become aware of what it means to be third force blind. It may be that this awakening makes humanity surviving its tendency towards self destruction possible
It's tribal. People band together in groups because that makes them stronger than they would be as individuals. That means adopting the beliefs of the group rather than thinking for oneself.
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmYou are describing the collective influence on animal Man. But the purpose of universal philosophy and religion is to awaken animal Man to human potential. Then he can break free of the collective influence and pursue the need for meaning the collective cannot offer.
Not to mention animal Woman.

I don't see much point in trying to awaken people. In my experience, when one is ready for a breakthrough, all manner of triggers can work. Nobody needs me to preach at them. If anything I say or do proves useful for someone, great, but I'm not going to feel proud. Many's the time that someone's offhand comment struck a chord in me that they would not have imagined, or especially cared about.

Ultimately, VIPs are the predecessors of future people who will have far more ability to reach their human potentials than almost all people alive today. The masses will progress at a far slower rate, with significant numbers turning feral.

There's eight billion people not living sustainably (en masse). When an animal group becomes too large for sustainability, infighting inevitably occurs, reducing the population and fragmenting the group into more manageable numbers.

The trigger for such infighting is growing hostility towards other group members. This dynamic is playing out in many societies today as competition for remaining resources becomes more intense.

So it goes.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Nick_A »

Sy Borg wrote: August 12th, 2021, 10:42 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pm Sy
Very true. We do not know what to believe and what to deny so belief or denial become emotional decisions that have torn the world apart. Yet somehow person knows there is logic and therefore meaning to the universe and Man's purpose within it.

No one knows this. That's my point.
Perhaps those beginning to awaken have felt this at the depth of their being as a higher form of knowledge. For example, how did Einstein know the following:
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
I think this is simply obvious, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. I have been workshopping the idea that humans tend to mistakenly think of themselves as separate from the Earth, living on its surface. The truth is that we are as much part of the Earth as any rock, tree or pocket of air. We live within the Earth rather than on it, within the atmosphere just as a fish lives underwater.

But being alive means being separate too. If one is not separate, then one are not alive as such, just a resource in the environment. Cell walls effectively make a philosophical statement that there exists both an inside and an outside.

In terms of evolution, thinking of oneself as separate and operating on that assumption has proved to be effective; there's billions of us. Separatist thinking helps life forms stay in one piece, spurring vigorous defences against potential disintegration. Yet, as per the Einstein quote, the reality is that we are both separate and part of a greater conglomerate. "A part and yet apart".

Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmSome want to go beyond this madness defending emotional blind belief or blind denial and discover that they are third force blind. It is the third force of reconciliation from a higher perspective which awakens a person to the emotional blindness of duality.[/i]

Only recently have more people become aware of what it means to be third force blind. It may be that this awakening makes humanity surviving its tendency towards self destruction possible
It's tribal. People band together in groups because that makes them stronger than they would be as individuals. That means adopting the beliefs of the group rather than thinking for oneself.
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmYou are describing the collective influence on animal Man. But the purpose of universal philosophy and religion is to awaken animal Man to human potential. Then he can break free of the collective influence and pursue the need for meaning the collective cannot offer.
Not to mention animal Woman.

I don't see much point in trying to awaken people. In my experience, when one is ready for a breakthrough, all manner of triggers can work. Nobody needs me to preach at them. If anything I say or do proves useful for someone, great, but I'm not going to feel proud. Many's the time that someone's offhand comment struck a chord in me that they would not have imagined, or especially cared about.

Ultimately, VIPs are the predecessors of future people who will have far more ability to reach their human potentials than almost all people alive today. The masses will progress at a far slower rate, with significant numbers turning feral.

There's eight billion people not living sustainably (en masse). When an animal group becomes too large for sustainability, infighting inevitably occurs, reducing the population and fragmenting the group into more manageable numbers.

The trigger for such infighting is growing hostility towards other group members. This dynamic is playing out in many societies today as competition for remaining resources becomes more intense.

So it goes.
Sy Borg wrote: August 12th, 2021, 10:42 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pm Sy
Very true. We do not know what to believe and what to deny so belief or denial become emotional decisions that have torn the world apart. Yet somehow person knows there is logic and therefore meaning to the universe and Man's purpose within it.

No one knows this. That's my point.
Perhaps those beginning to awaken have felt this at the depth of their being as a higher form of knowledge. For example, how did Einstein know the following:
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
I think this is simply obvious, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. I have been workshopping the idea that humans tend to mistakenly think of themselves as separate from the Earth, living on its surface. The truth is that we are as much part of the Earth as any rock, tree or pocket of air. We live within the Earth rather than on it, within the atmosphere just as a fish lives underwater.

But being alive means being separate too. If one is not separate, then one are not alive as such, just a resource in the environment. Cell walls effectively make a philosophical statement that there exists both an inside and an outside.

In terms of evolution, thinking of oneself as separate and operating on that assumption has proved to be effective; there's billions of us. Separatist thinking helps life forms stay in one piece, spurring vigorous defences against potential disintegration. Yet, as per the Einstein quote, the reality is that we are both separate and part of a greater conglomerate. "A part and yet apart".

Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmSome want to go beyond this madness defending emotional blind belief or blind denial and discover that they are third force blind. It is the third force of reconciliation from a higher perspective which awakens a person to the emotional blindness of duality.[/i]

Only recently have more people become aware of what it means to be third force blind. It may be that this awakening makes humanity surviving its tendency towards self destruction possible
It's tribal. People band together in groups because that makes them stronger than they would be as individuals. That means adopting the beliefs of the group rather than thinking for oneself.
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmYou are describing the collective influence on animal Man. But the purpose of universal philosophy and religion is to awaken animal Man to human potential. Then he can break free of the collective influence and pursue the need for meaning the collective cannot offer.
Not to mention animal Woman.

I don't see much point in trying to awaken people. In my experience, when one is ready for a breakthrough, all manner of triggers can work. Nobody needs me to preach at them. If anything I say or do proves useful for someone, great, but I'm not going to feel proud. Many's the time that someone's offhand comment struck a chord in me that they would not have imagined, or especially cared about.

Ultimately, VIPs are the predecessors of future people who will have far more ability to reach their human potentials than almost all people alive today. The masses will progress at a far slower rate, with significant numbers turning feral.

There's eight billion people not living sustainably (en masse). When an animal group becomes too large for sustainability, infighting inevitably occurs, reducing the population and fragmenting the group into more manageable numbers.

The trigger for such infighting is growing hostility towards other group members. This dynamic is playing out in many societies today as competition for remaining resources becomes more intense.

So it goes.
We are sleeping people so just participate in the world of opinions. Are you familiar with the concept of metaxu? It is the societal influence that connects society with its conscious source. It is diminishing in the world.

Rather than awakening anyone, can philosophy serve to prove that humanity is asleep in Plato's cave? From Jacob Needleman's book: "The Heart of Philosophy" Can philosophy serve its function as an essential part of metaxu?

Chapter 1

Introduction

Man cannot live without philosophy. This is not a figure of speech but a literal fact that will be demonstrated in this book. There is a yearning in the heart that is nourished only by real philosophy and without this nourishment man dies as surely as if he were deprived of food and air. But this part of the human psyche is not known or honored in our culture. When it does breakthrough to our awareness it is either ignored or treated as something else. It is given wrong names; it is not cared for; it is crushed. And eventually, it may withdraw altogether, never again to appear. When this happens man becomes a thing. No matter what he accomplishes or experiences, no matter what happiness he experiences or what service he performs, he has in fact lost his real possibility. He is dead.

……………………….The function of philosophy in human life is to help Man remember. It has no other task. And anything that calls itself philosophy which does not serve this function is simply not philosophy……………………………….
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: August 13th, 2021, 1:14 pm
Sy Borg wrote: August 12th, 2021, 10:42 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pm Sy
Very true. We do not know what to believe and what to deny so belief or denial become emotional decisions that have torn the world apart. Yet somehow person knows there is logic and therefore meaning to the universe and Man's purpose within it.

No one knows this. That's my point.
Perhaps those beginning to awaken have felt this at the depth of their being as a higher form of knowledge. For example, how did Einstein know the following:
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
I think this is simply obvious, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. I have been workshopping the idea that humans tend to mistakenly think of themselves as separate from the Earth, living on its surface. The truth is that we are as much part of the Earth as any rock, tree or pocket of air. We live within the Earth rather than on it, within the atmosphere just as a fish lives underwater.

But being alive means being separate too. If one is not separate, then one are not alive as such, just a resource in the environment. Cell walls effectively make a philosophical statement that there exists both an inside and an outside.

In terms of evolution, thinking of oneself as separate and operating on that assumption has proved to be effective; there's billions of us. Separatist thinking helps life forms stay in one piece, spurring vigorous defences against potential disintegration. Yet, as per the Einstein quote, the reality is that we are both separate and part of a greater conglomerate. "A part and yet apart".

Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmSome want to go beyond this madness defending emotional blind belief or blind denial and discover that they are third force blind. It is the third force of reconciliation from a higher perspective which awakens a person to the emotional blindness of duality.[/i]

Only recently have more people become aware of what it means to be third force blind. It may be that this awakening makes humanity surviving its tendency towards self destruction possible
It's tribal. People band together in groups because that makes them stronger than they would be as individuals. That means adopting the beliefs of the group rather than thinking for oneself.
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmYou are describing the collective influence on animal Man. But the purpose of universal philosophy and religion is to awaken animal Man to human potential. Then he can break free of the collective influence and pursue the need for meaning the collective cannot offer.
Not to mention animal Woman.

I don't see much point in trying to awaken people. In my experience, when one is ready for a breakthrough, all manner of triggers can work. Nobody needs me to preach at them. If anything I say or do proves useful for someone, great, but I'm not going to feel proud. Many's the time that someone's offhand comment struck a chord in me that they would not have imagined, or especially cared about.

Ultimately, VIPs are the predecessors of future people who will have far more ability to reach their human potentials than almost all people alive today. The masses will progress at a far slower rate, with significant numbers turning feral.

There's eight billion people not living sustainably (en masse). When an animal group becomes too large for sustainability, infighting inevitably occurs, reducing the population and fragmenting the group into more manageable numbers.

The trigger for such infighting is growing hostility towards other group members. This dynamic is playing out in many societies today as competition for remaining resources becomes more intense.

So it goes.
Sy Borg wrote: August 12th, 2021, 10:42 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pm Sy
Very true. We do not know what to believe and what to deny so belief or denial become emotional decisions that have torn the world apart. Yet somehow person knows there is logic and therefore meaning to the universe and Man's purpose within it.

No one knows this. That's my point.
Perhaps those beginning to awaken have felt this at the depth of their being as a higher form of knowledge. For example, how did Einstein know the following:
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
I think this is simply obvious, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. I have been workshopping the idea that humans tend to mistakenly think of themselves as separate from the Earth, living on its surface. The truth is that we are as much part of the Earth as any rock, tree or pocket of air. We live within the Earth rather than on it, within the atmosphere just as a fish lives underwater.

But being alive means being separate too. If one is not separate, then one are not alive as such, just a resource in the environment. Cell walls effectively make a philosophical statement that there exists both an inside and an outside.

In terms of evolution, thinking of oneself as separate and operating on that assumption has proved to be effective; there's billions of us. Separatist thinking helps life forms stay in one piece, spurring vigorous defences against potential disintegration. Yet, as per the Einstein quote, the reality is that we are both separate and part of a greater conglomerate. "A part and yet apart".

Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmSome want to go beyond this madness defending emotional blind belief or blind denial and discover that they are third force blind. It is the third force of reconciliation from a higher perspective which awakens a person to the emotional blindness of duality.[/i]

Only recently have more people become aware of what it means to be third force blind. It may be that this awakening makes humanity surviving its tendency towards self destruction possible
It's tribal. People band together in groups because that makes them stronger than they would be as individuals. That means adopting the beliefs of the group rather than thinking for oneself.
Nick_A wrote: August 12th, 2021, 8:35 pmYou are describing the collective influence on animal Man. But the purpose of universal philosophy and religion is to awaken animal Man to human potential. Then he can break free of the collective influence and pursue the need for meaning the collective cannot offer.
Not to mention animal Woman.

I don't see much point in trying to awaken people. In my experience, when one is ready for a breakthrough, all manner of triggers can work. Nobody needs me to preach at them. If anything I say or do proves useful for someone, great, but I'm not going to feel proud. Many's the time that someone's offhand comment struck a chord in me that they would not have imagined, or especially cared about.

Ultimately, VIPs are the predecessors of future people who will have far more ability to reach their human potentials than almost all people alive today. The masses will progress at a far slower rate, with significant numbers turning feral.

There's eight billion people not living sustainably (en masse). When an animal group becomes too large for sustainability, infighting inevitably occurs, reducing the population and fragmenting the group into more manageable numbers.

The trigger for such infighting is growing hostility towards other group members. This dynamic is playing out in many societies today as competition for remaining resources becomes more intense.

So it goes.
We are sleeping people so just participate in the world of opinions. Are you familiar with the concept of metaxu? It is the societal influence that connects society with its conscious source. It is diminishing in the world.

Rather than awakening anyone, can philosophy serve to prove that humanity is asleep in Plato's cave? From Jacob Needleman's book: "The Heart of Philosophy" Can philosophy serve its function as an essential part of metaxu?

Chapter 1

Introduction

Man cannot live without philosophy. This is not a figure of speech but a literal fact that will be demonstrated in this book. There is a yearning in the heart that is nourished only by real philosophy and without this nourishment man dies as surely as if he were deprived of food and air. But this part of the human psyche is not known or honored in our culture. When it does breakthrough to our awareness it is either ignored or treated as something else. It is given wrong names; it is not cared for; it is crushed. And eventually, it may withdraw altogether, never again to appear. When this happens man becomes a thing. No matter what he accomplishes or experiences, no matter what happiness he experiences or what service he performs, he has in fact lost his real possibility. He is dead.

……………………….The function of philosophy in human life is to help Man remember. It has no other task. And anything that calls itself philosophy which does not serve this function is simply not philosophy……………………………….
Like so many on such forums, I am obviously interested in an examined life. As such, I refuse to commit to the unproven. While this is my inclination, I would not recommend my way of doing things to anyone who seeks financial and social success. Humans thrive best when they commit to the unknown. In doing so they become part of a tribe and they have natural allies.

I remember when my high IQ sister threw away her learning and embraced young creationism so as to join the Jehovah's Witnesses "tribe". She was lonely, with her marriage in trouble, and the JWs, joined together by their commitment to spurious beliefs brought her a new marriage, a stepdaughter, and hundreds of friends. There was a horde at her funeral and, based on my conversations with them, many knew my sister surprisingly well.

That's how it works. Commitment to the world brings the world to you. Keep the world at arms' length, as I do, and the world mostly obliges (aside from occasional parasitic attacks). It need not be religion. Materialism also brings people together. Politics. Sexual and sexuality politics. Each will will make claims about reality that are not proven, and fail to be objective with their group's perceived enemies. Bonding against a common enemy is a time-honoured means of bringing people together, but that requires the type of thinking that sees those who disagree with you as "enemies" rather than being examples of natural social diversity.

If one seeks to be a quiet loner with very little in the way of family and friends, then all that's needed is avoid committing to the unproven. That way you will never have a tribe and or allies, ever lacking empowering networks. Rewards come to those who are prepared to believe biased views without serious questioning.

Solitude awaits those who question. They are forced to form a new tribe with others who don't make claims about insufficiently substantiated phenomena, namely, with animals and plants, with nature. Sadly, nature (as usually defined) is the the "losing team". Social selection (as a subset of natural selection) clearly looks to be favouring humans with blind belief and blind denial over noncommital humans, animals and plants. Bias is everywhere, and rarely punished.

What does is it mean to be neutral amongst the biased? I means leading a quiet life, away from both the rewards and struggles that bias brings. It's just one more way to live a life. It's hard to see too much of this hurly-burly mattering in the greater scheme of things, so benefits tend to come to those who think locally rather than universally.
PoeticUniverse
Posts: 638
Joined: April 4th, 2015, 7:25 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Sy Borg wrote: August 13th, 2021, 6:15 pm Solitude awaits those who question. They are forced to form a new tribe with others who don't make claims about insufficiently substantiated phenomena, namely, with animals and plants, with nature. Sadly, nature (as usually defined) is the the "losing team". Social selection (as a subset of natural selection) clearly looks to be favouring humans with blind belief and blind denial over noncommital humans, animals and plants. Bias is everywhere, and rarely punished.
This is great and it reminds me of Omar Khayyam, born in 1048 in old Persia, who became quite the questioner, in secret, for Islam had recently arrive in its rule and had abolished philosophy and even medicine, I think. While he was famous for his astronomy and the invention of a new and much more accurate and useful calendar, no one knew much of his philosophical/metaphysical poems of doubt until the 19th century when they were discovered in the Bodleian Library.

Here is one here, with the rest being my inspirations:

To Solitude Retired

4.
Now the New Year reviving old Desires,
The thoughtful Soul to Solitude retires,
Where the White Hand Of Moses on the Bough
Puts out, and Jesus from the Ground suspires.

Aft the cloud’s eyes water the soil that dried,
The sun’s warm breath wakes up the seeds inside;
Hence, all the plants, trees, and flowers revive,
And over mead, stream, and wayside preside.

The Spirit breathes life with its holy might;
Spring blossoms replace winter’s snowy white;
Cloudy vapors coalesce into drops;
The airs the lovers with fragrance invite.

Spring kisses the earth, leaving flowers there,
Like those whose perfume first scented virgin air,
As again, the fragrant glen, in Heaven’s prayer,
Hails Earth’s anniversary with flowers fair.

Slake love’s thirst for life’s earthly endeavor
Near a stream where wildflowers grow forever.
Flowers influence our feelings—deep they roam:
Flora’s fairest flowers compose Heaven’s poem.

Our souls to solitude often retire,
When the noise of life sets the nerves on fire.
Here the rhythmic songs of nature inspire;
We sense the vibrance of an inner choir.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Beyond the Duality of Blind Belief and Blind Denial

Post by Nick_A »

SY
Solitude awaits those who question. They are forced to form a new tribe with others who don't make claims about insufficiently substantiated phenomena, namely, with animals and plants, with nature. Sadly, nature (as usually defined) is the the "losing team". Social selection (as a subset of natural selection) clearly looks to be favouring humans with blind belief and blind denial over noncommital humans, animals and plants. Bias is everywhere, and rarely punished.

What does is it mean to be neutral amongst the biased? I means leading a quiet life, away from both the rewards and struggles that bias brings. It's just one more way to live a life. It's hard to see too much of this hurly-burly mattering in the greater scheme of things, so benefits tend to come to those who think locally rather than universally.
In the past I've tried to discuss the relationship between solitude and the grand collective I call the Great Beast. I've learned it is rejected on secular philosophy sites simply because it questions the value of the collective for providing meaning. Solitude denies the value of the collective. It seems quiet now so maybe it can be discussed without expressions of insult

Yes there are super women and one was Simone Weil. She understood the value of solitude.

https://www.hermitary.com/solitude/weil.html
According to Weil, the person's accession to society, the individual's renunciation of values to the collective as defined by a small group, is based on ignorance and fear, fear that without society (which is to say the state), people will collapse into crime and evil. The social and collective is seen as transcending individuals, as a supernatural entity from which nationalism and war is as normal as science, progress, and consumption. All of these evils are taking place simultaneously in a social context. The individual has probably never reflected on these issues at all, never acknowledged his or her degree of complicity in this system. But, say the apologist for the Great Beast, the individual need have no direct responsibility,

The collective is the object of all idolatry, this it is which chains us to the earth. In the case of avarice, gold is the social order. In the case of ambition, power is the social order.................

.................Solitude was a core conclusion to the philosopher in her, formed by experience in the world, of war, atrocity, betray, and dishonor. Yet solitude was the core reality, too, of the spiritual, the transcendent, and the love of God. What a unique presence Weil brings to solitude in her complex and vibrant mind and heart!

In "Human Personality," Weil develops the notion that "what is sacred in a human being is the impersonal in him ... essentially anonymous." The realm of the impersonal genius created "Gregorian chant, Romanesque architecture, the Iliad, the invention of geometry." In a quintessentially Platonic expressions, Weil writes, "What is sacred in science is truth; what is sacred in art is beauty. Truth and beauty are impersonal."

Impersonality is only reached by the practice of a form of attention which is rare in itself and impossible except in solitude, and not only physical but mental solitude. This is never achieved by those who think of themselves as members of a collectivity, as part of something which says "We."

Solitude is thus a separation for the sake of productivity or individual self-expression. But more importantly, solitude is permanent enough to both sever that sense of subordination to social groups and constructive enough to achieve a renunciation of ego, what Weil calls "impersonality."

Moreover, solitude has a moral and ethical component that the collectivity or group lacks, or, more specifically, cannot claim. To desire absolute good but then seek it in the world of externals fails because the world of externals is the realm of merely relative goods. Weil describes the problem in terms of how one relates to others, again summarized in a Platonic image already quoted above.

Relationship breaks its way out of the social. It is the monopoly of the individual. Society is the cave. The way out is solitude. ... To relate belongs to the solitary spirit. No crowd can conceive relationship: "This is good or bad in relation to..." "in so far as ..." That escapes the crowd. A crowd cannot add things together. One who is above social life returns to it when he wishes; not so one who is below. It is the same with everything.
In the real sense, the genuine purpose of solitude isn't escapism but through the power of conscious attention, become able to receive life rather than indoctrination.

"Do not allow yourself to be imprisoned by any affection. Keep your solitude. The day, if it ever comes, when you are given true affection, there will be no opposition between interior solitude and friendship, quite the reverse. It is even by this infallible sign that you will recognize it." Gurdjieff called this conscious love
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021