Atheism and Free Will

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Darshan
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Darshan »

Completely wrong. In a democracy, removing the President will result in the Vice President to take over and likely the same or better policy. In a brutal dictatorship, removing the dictator completely changes policy for the better.
Senator Lindsey Graham was absolutely right.
Remove Putin ASAP to save Russia and save Ukraine and save the world. Putin is a cancer killing our World.
His death would be a blessing to all of humanity.
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Thomyum2
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Thomyum2 »

Darshan wrote: April 26th, 2022, 10:56 am Completely wrong. In a democracy, removing the President will result in the Vice President to take over and likely the same or better policy. In a brutal dictatorship, removing the dictator completely changes policy for the better.
Senator Lindsey Graham was absolutely right.
Remove Putin ASAP to save Russia and save Ukraine and save the world. Putin is a cancer killing our World.
His death would be a blessing to all of humanity.
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. - J.R.R. Tolkien
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
Darshan
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Darshan »

As women and children are being killed every hour in Ukraine in a genocide and a new Holocaust, we cannot be afraid to stop the killing and genocide. The world was a safer and more humane place after Hitler died and after Osama bin Laden was killed. Putin chose to follow their playbook and deserves the same fate.
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LuckyR
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by LuckyR »

Russian aggression in Ukraine is every bit as evil as you describe, though probably doesn't qualify (and hopefully never will) as a genocide, let alone a holocaust.
"As usual... it depends."
Darshan
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Darshan »

We are watching a genocide in Ukraine.
Putin is responsible for this genocide.
The definition of genocide may vary but the systematic killing of civilian Ukrainian men, women and children is a war crime and Putin is guilty of crimes against humanity.
We learned last century that such human devils who are not stopped keep killing until they are killed.
Putin in many ways is behaving like Hitler and to ignore this will empower him to keep killing.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Sy Borg »

Does Putin have free will or is he the product of his genetics and experiences?
Darshan
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Darshan »

We all have equal free will and Putin can use his free will to order a invasion and destruction. His free will is not one thousand times greater than a child in Ukraine who dies under the civilian bombing. Putin is a brutal dictator who uses his free will to kill his opponents to stay in power. In the end the free will of the victims families will rise to destroy him.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Sy Borg »

Darshan wrote: April 27th, 2022, 3:55 am We all have equal free will and Putin can use his free will to order a invasion and destruction. His free will is not one thousand times greater than a child in Ukraine who dies under the civilian bombing. Putin is a brutal dictator who uses his free will to kill his opponents to stay in power. In the end the free will of the victims families will rise to destroy him.
I think Vlad the Invader is trapped in a gilded cage of his own design. Apparently his meetings are conducted with him at the far end of a long table, to reduce the risk of assassination. Every meal must be considered, lest it be poisoned. His security detail can never let its guard down. There are millions of Russians (and others) who want Putin dead. I expect that some in the CCP wouldn't complain if he was taken out, because he's proving to be an erratic partner. I cannot imagine them being thrilled at Putin making nuclear threats. China would be hurt by nuclear winter more than most as they have more mouths to feed.
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Astro Cat
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Astro Cat »

ManInTheMoon wrote: July 31st, 2021, 7:55 pm Is an atheistic reality compatible with free will? If it is possible to make a free choice between two alternatives, it must be the case that reality can change and that future states of reality are not necessarily predictable even with perfect knowledge of the present and past.

If reality does change, there must be some ultimate source(s) of change. There must be some part of reality that is capable of causing change without any prior cause, otherwise no causal sequence could even begin. In an atheistic reality, the ultimate source of change cannot be a will, I think, because that would be a god; so it must be something else. The only alternative I can think of is randomness—spontaneous change without any cause. Is there another?

If all change is not ultimately caused by a will, how could it be that my own will is capable of interacting with other parts of reality? For example, when I walk, I can choose whether to begin with my left foot or my right, but how does that decision go from choice to actual change?
I have a hard time with the free will debate because it seems to me it matters little either way (either we are free, whatever that means -- or the illusion is enough). I think that Galen Strawson has a point in his arguments against causa sui free will, or the ability to conjure choices out of nothing.

When I bother thinking about free will I think a lot about Buridan's Donkey and Strawson's (related) causa sui arguments, I will try to present them in short.

Buridan's Donkey is a very old free will question (paradox, maybe?) in which a donkey is very thirsty in a symmetrical environment, and in front of the donkey are two pales of water (equidistant on the left and on the right from the donkey's face). Different philosophies on free will would provide different solutions for what it means for the donkey to choose one bucket to drink from over the other. For instance a determinist or compatibilist would say that if the donkey drinks from the left instead of the right, perhaps there is a slight breeze making it just so much easier for the donkey to turn that way, or any number of subtle things like that. A libertarian free will (which, if I'm not wrong, entails the power of causa sui) person would say that the donkey just chooses left or right, wills the ability to go left or right out of nowhere.

Strawson would say that the very idea of causa sui might be noncognitive: where, he might ask, did this choice come from and how does it manifest out of nothing?

Strawson would draw an example that you can relate to: say you like ice cream and chocolate equally, and you're allowed to have one or the other. If you choose the chocolate, Strawson would say that you didn't conjure the desire to have the chocolate out of thin air, you didn't will it: it was just there, such that if you were asked why you chose the chocolate over the ice cream (being fond of both) you might answer, "I don't know, I just felt like the chocolate in that moment." Strawson seizes on the "I just felt like..." part and says that you didn't create the desire, it simply existed outside of your control.

I'm inclined to agree with Strawson on that. I'm not sure the idea of causa sui makes any sense, and thus I'm not inclined towards libertarian free will concepts.

I acknowledge that we do feel like we make choices though. While I struggle to understand what it even means, I tentatively place myself in some kind of compatibilist camp. At the end of the day, though, I honestly hate the debate. Why am I typing about it, then? I must be bored! Haha! ^_^
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
--Richard Feynman
Belindi
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Belindi »

There are good primates that are not homo sapiens and nobody thinks these other primates have 'Free Will'. Free Will is a special gift of God that allows homo sapiens to originate (some) choices. According to Free Will theory; God is the only being , apart from men, that originates choices.

Free Will theory: nothing in nature originates choices except men.

If you believe that, you probably also believe men are superior to all other animals. And if you believe that you probably also believe God made men superior to all other animals.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Greatest I am »

Astro Cat wrote: June 18th, 2022, 1:04 am At the end of the day, though, I honestly hate the debate. Why am I typing about it, then? I must be bored! Haha! ^_^
Especially when the answer is rather obvious, in that we have a free will, but it is limited by nature/physics.

We can all know for a certainty that we all have a free will, by taking a test that has one give it away.

That simple test is a proof of concept that cannot be denied by anyone.

Try it and test to see if you have a free will.

Reply to this post starting your comment with the letter "I".

If you choose to comply as requested, it proves that you have a free will to give away.

If you choose otherwise, you will also recognize that you are choosing/willing to ignore my request.

Regards
DL
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LuckyR
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by LuckyR »

Greatest I am wrote: June 18th, 2022, 12:17 pm
Astro Cat wrote: June 18th, 2022, 1:04 am At the end of the day, though, I honestly hate the debate. Why am I typing about it, then? I must be bored! Haha! ^_^
Especially when the answer is rather obvious, in that we have a free will, but it is limited by nature/physics.

We can all know for a certainty that we all have a free will, by taking a test that has one give it away.

That simple test is a proof of concept that cannot be denied by anyone.

Try it and test to see if you have a free will.

Reply to this post starting your comment with the letter "I".

If you choose to comply as requested, it proves that you have a free will to give away.

If you choose otherwise, you will also recognize that you are choosing/willing to ignore my request.

Regards
DL
I wonder why this obvious reality escapes so many folks. Especially those who ponder theory while ignoring experience.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Belindi »

Greatest I am wrote: June 18th, 2022, 12:17 pm
Astro Cat wrote: June 18th, 2022, 1:04 am At the end of the day, though, I honestly hate the debate. Why am I typing about it, then? I must be bored! Haha! ^_^
Especially when the answer is rather obvious, in that we have a free will, but it is limited by nature/physics.

We can all know for a certainty that we all have a free will, by taking a test that has one give it away.

That simple test is a proof of concept that cannot be denied by anyone.

Try it and test to see if you have a free will.

Reply to this post starting your comment with the letter "I".

If you choose to comply as requested, it proves that you have a free will to give away.

If you choose otherwise, you will also recognize that you are choosing/willing to ignore my request.

Regards
DL
But I don't "have a will". A will is not a thing like an arm or a leg, nor is a will an event like a good deed.

Reification - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms - Vocabulary.comhttps://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › reification
Reification is when you think of or treat something abstract as a physical thing. Reification is a complex idea for when you treat something immaterial — like ...
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Greatest I am
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Greatest I am »

LuckyR wrote: June 19th, 2022, 2:32 am
Greatest I am wrote: June 18th, 2022, 12:17 pm
Astro Cat wrote: June 18th, 2022, 1:04 am At the end of the day, though, I honestly hate the debate. Why am I typing about it, then? I must be bored! Haha! ^_^
Especially when the answer is rather obvious, in that we have a free will, but it is limited by nature/physics.

We can all know for a certainty that we all have a free will, by taking a test that has one give it away.

That simple test is a proof of concept that cannot be denied by anyone.

Try it and test to see if you have a free will.

Reply to this post starting your comment with the letter "I".

If you choose to comply as requested, it proves that you have a free will to give away.

If you choose otherwise, you will also recognize that you are choosing/willing to ignore my request.

Regards
DL
I wonder why this obvious reality escapes so many folks. Especially those who ponder theory while ignoring experience.
+1

I think they might want a black and white system in a multi colored universe.

Rergards
DL
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Astro Cat
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Astro Cat »

Greatest I am wrote: June 18th, 2022, 12:17 pm
Astro Cat wrote: June 18th, 2022, 1:04 am At the end of the day, though, I honestly hate the debate. Why am I typing about it, then? I must be bored! Haha! ^_^
Especially when the answer is rather obvious, in that we have a free will, but it is limited by nature/physics.

We can all know for a certainty that we all have a free will, by taking a test that has one give it away.

That simple test is a proof of concept that cannot be denied by anyone.

Try it and test to see if you have a free will.

Reply to this post starting your comment with the letter "I".

If you choose to comply as requested, it proves that you have a free will to give away.

If you choose otherwise, you will also recognize that you are choosing/willing to ignore my request.

Regards
DL
I think (there, I did it) that this misses the crux of my commentary about the problems with assuming these choices are causa sui, though.

But, I truly care very little about the free will debate. The illusion, if it is one, is good enough for me.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
--Richard Feynman
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