Atheism and Free Will

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Greatest I am wrote: June 27th, 2022, 9:37 am IMO, all ideologies should be based on reality and facts and not lies and fictions.
This will happen when humans become Vulcans, or androids. Humans and stories ("fictions") have a very long and happy history. Humans routinely communicate via lies and deceptions. You are a humanity-denier. You yearn for us to be something other than we are. A good dose of religion might help you to accept things as they are, perhaps? 🤔😋
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Charlemagne »

"by Greatest I am

The evidence is clear.

The more modernized the peoples, the less the need or disposition towards imaginary God and heroes."


And the greater the need for a real God and real heroes.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Sy Borg »

Alas, personified gods don't exist and one person's hero is another's arch-villain.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Belindi »

Charlemagne wrote: October 8th, 2022, 12:21 am "by Greatest I am

The evidence is clear.

The more modernized the peoples, the less the need or disposition towards imaginary God and heroes."


And the greater the need for a real God and real heroes.
If by "real" you mean God can be described and explained then there is nothing 'real' about God. All you or anyone else can say about God is He is not this, not that.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Just curious, was the question ever answered, regarding the prevailing consensus that Atheists believe in either free will or determinism, or both? I'm wondering which position corresponds to their believe system(?).
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Sy Borg »

I don't care about free will. If everything is more deterministic than we think, what does it matter? It feel like free will, so that will do me in lieu of extra evidence. In my experience, this is a fairly common view with those who see Yahweh, Zeus, Odin and Zarathustra as mythological entities rather than ontic realities.

However, as is the case with many fables, the characters appear to be metaphors for real or apparent phenomena, as observed by ancients for whom metaphor acted in place of scientific terminology, which had not yet been developed.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:28 am I don't care about free will. If everything is more deterministic than we think, what does it matter? It feel like free will, so that will do me in lieu of extra evidence. In my experience, this is a fairly common view with those who see Yahweh, Zeus, Odin and Zarathustra as mythological entities rather than ontic realities.

However, as is the case with many fables, the characters appear to be metaphors for real or apparent phenomena, as observed by ancients for whom metaphor acted in place of scientific terminology, which had not yet been developed.
It doesn't matter for most decisions.

It does matter where moral judgments have to be made especially when criminals and other wrongdoers have to be blamed and/or punished. Mitigating circumstances are common and comprehensive in liberal judgments ,and absent in ungenerous and narrow-minded judgments. These contrasting and conflicting attitudes are carried over into polarised political affiliations and international relations.

What this has to do with atheism is that the Abrahamic Deity is generally believed to have given men Free Will, which involves impossible responsibility that no other animal or plant suffers from.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:28 am I don't care about free will. If everything is more deterministic than we think, what does it matter? It feel like free will, so that will do me in lieu of extra evidence. In my experience, this is a fairly common view with those who see Yahweh, Zeus, Odin and Zarathustra as mythological entities rather than ontic realities.

However, as is the case with many fables, the characters appear to be metaphors for real or apparent phenomena, as observed by ancients for whom metaphor acted in place of scientific terminology, which had not yet been developed.
I actually agree in that the debate never really concerned me. If you look at physics, there is both determinism (cause-and-effect) and indeterminism (Quantum uncertainty) existing in the world of material phenomena. Albeit, as biological creatures, we're really not supposed to analogize to material objects, but we do anyway.

The reason I was asking, is that it seems if an Atheist argues for 'determinism', that could also seem counterintuitive to their belief system.
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Sy Borg »

3017Metaphysician wrote: October 11th, 2022, 8:11 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:28 am I don't care about free will. If everything is more deterministic than we think, what does it matter? It feel like free will, so that will do me in lieu of extra evidence. In my experience, this is a fairly common view with those who see Yahweh, Zeus, Odin and Zarathustra as mythological entities rather than ontic realities.

However, as is the case with many fables, the characters appear to be metaphors for real or apparent phenomena, as observed by ancients for whom metaphor acted in place of scientific terminology, which had not yet been developed.
I actually agree in that the debate never really concerned me. If you look at physics, there is both determinism (cause-and-effect) and indeterminism (Quantum uncertainty) existing in the world of material phenomena. Albeit, as biological creatures, we're really not supposed to analogize to material objects, but we do anyway.

The reason I was asking, is that it seems if an Atheist argues for 'determinism', that could also seem counterintuitive to their belief system.
Then again, free will is incompatible with any theism that posits an interventionist deity.

I have never been inspired by debates about free will. I never understood why people took it so seriously, as if it was the key to everything. From inside this particular cranium, it feels like there is limited freedom. One's foibles, physics and other people all conspire to reduce freedom.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 4:26 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: October 11th, 2022, 8:11 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:28 am I don't care about free will. If everything is more deterministic than we think, what does it matter? It feel like free will, so that will do me in lieu of extra evidence. In my experience, this is a fairly common view with those who see Yahweh, Zeus, Odin and Zarathustra as mythological entities rather than ontic realities.

However, as is the case with many fables, the characters appear to be metaphors for real or apparent phenomena, as observed by ancients for whom metaphor acted in place of scientific terminology, which had not yet been developed.
I actually agree in that the debate never really concerned me. If you look at physics, there is both determinism (cause-and-effect) and indeterminism (Quantum uncertainty) existing in the world of material phenomena. Albeit, as biological creatures, we're really not supposed to analogize to material objects, but we do anyway.

The reason I was asking, is that it seems if an Atheist argues for 'determinism', that could also seem counterintuitive to their belief system.
Then again, free will is incompatible with any theism that posits an interventionist deity.

I have never been inspired by debates about free will. I never understood why people took it so seriously, as if it was the key to everything. From inside this particular cranium, it feels like there is limited freedom. One's foibles, physics and other people all conspire to reduce freedom.
Well, yes and no. If everything is deterministic, then the universe exists out of logical necessity. Conversely, if everything is contingent (free Will), then it confers purpose (teleology). Accordingly, the Will itself is a thing that causes behavior, and is a qualitative property of the mind, and/or properties of a thinking thing. Either way, using logic, the Atheist yields an untenable position in explaining their belief system about reality.

How does Atheism explain everything, or does it? In other words, what's the purpose of Atheism?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Sy Borg
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Sy Borg »

3017Metaphysician wrote: October 12th, 2022, 8:19 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 4:26 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: October 11th, 2022, 8:11 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 1:28 am I don't care about free will. If everything is more deterministic than we think, what does it matter? It feel like free will, so that will do me in lieu of extra evidence. In my experience, this is a fairly common view with those who see Yahweh, Zeus, Odin and Zarathustra as mythological entities rather than ontic realities.

However, as is the case with many fables, the characters appear to be metaphors for real or apparent phenomena, as observed by ancients for whom metaphor acted in place of scientific terminology, which had not yet been developed.
I actually agree in that the debate never really concerned me. If you look at physics, there is both determinism (cause-and-effect) and indeterminism (Quantum uncertainty) existing in the world of material phenomena. Albeit, as biological creatures, we're really not supposed to analogize to material objects, but we do anyway.

The reason I was asking, is that it seems if an Atheist argues for 'determinism', that could also seem counterintuitive to their belief system.
Then again, free will is incompatible with any theism that posits an interventionist deity.

I have never been inspired by debates about free will. I never understood why people took it so seriously, as if it was the key to everything. From inside this particular cranium, it feels like there is limited freedom. One's foibles, physics and other people all conspire to reduce freedom.
Well, yes and no. If everything is deterministic, then the universe exists out of logical necessity. Conversely, if everything is contingent (free Will), then it confers purpose (teleology). Accordingly, the Will itself is a thing that causes behavior, and is a qualitative property of the mind, and/or properties of a thinking thing. Either way, using logic, the Atheist yields an untenable position in explaining their belief system about reality.

How does Atheism explain everything, or does it? In other words, what's the purpose of Atheism?
As I say, I don't give a crap about determinism. We are all familiar with the numerous bounds that frustrate us, from the limits imposed by the land, nature and other organisms (eg. viruses), our physical limitations, our mental limits and the bounds imposed by other humans. These are the limits that concern me and, I presume, most people. The Will is a drive based on the survival instinct, mediated by cognition. Survival instincts started out as reflexes, but they gain an emotional dimension in intelligent animals like humans.

You expect atheism to provide answers as if atheists were not atheists, but different kinds of theists reading from the Atheism Bible. This is made clear by your capitalisation of the word, "atheism". Atheism is a concept, like theism, not an institution like Christianity or Islam.

Please try to finally understand this very simple concept ... ATHEISM - IS - SIMPLY - DISBELIEF - IN - MYTHS. That's all.

You are an atheist too - to Zarathustra, Zeus and Odin. How does your atheism towards Zeus explains everything. What is the purpose of your atheism towards Zeus? Do you now see how incoherent your questions are?
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Sy Borg wrote: October 12th, 2022, 4:38 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: October 12th, 2022, 8:19 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 11th, 2022, 4:26 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: October 11th, 2022, 8:11 am

I actually agree in that the debate never really concerned me. If you look at physics, there is both determinism (cause-and-effect) and indeterminism (Quantum uncertainty) existing in the world of material phenomena. Albeit, as biological creatures, we're really not supposed to analogize to material objects, but we do anyway.

The reason I was asking, is that it seems if an Atheist argues for 'determinism', that could also seem counterintuitive to their belief system.
Then again, free will is incompatible with any theism that posits an interventionist deity.

I have never been inspired by debates about free will. I never understood why people took it so seriously, as if it was the key to everything. From inside this particular cranium, it feels like there is limited freedom. One's foibles, physics and other people all conspire to reduce freedom.
Well, yes and no. If everything is deterministic, then the universe exists out of logical necessity. Conversely, if everything is contingent (free Will), then it confers purpose (teleology). Accordingly, the Will itself is a thing that causes behavior, and is a qualitative property of the mind, and/or properties of a thinking thing. Either way, using logic, the Atheist yields an untenable position in explaining their belief system about reality.

How does Atheism explain everything, or does it? In other words, what's the purpose of Atheism?
As I say, I don't give a crap about determinism. We are all familiar with the numerous bounds that frustrate us, from the limits imposed by the land, nature and other organisms (eg. viruses), our physical limitations, our mental limits and the bounds imposed by other humans. These are the limits that concern me and, I presume, most people. The Will is a drive based on the survival instinct, mediated by cognition. Survival instincts started out as reflexes, but they gain an emotional dimension in intelligent animals like humans.

Interesting SB. Just a few thoughts/questions on your interpretation of the Will:

1. What is 'mediated by cognition' mean, in the context of survival instinct?
2. How does our survival instinct gain an 'emotional dimension'?
3. Does that 'emotional dimension' have any, or confer any, survival advantages? For instance, are there corresponding inferences to biological evolution in terms of an increase in the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce.

You expect atheism to provide answers as if atheists were not atheists, but different kinds of theists reading from the Atheism Bible. This is made clear by your capitalisation of the word, "atheism". Atheism is a concept, like theism, not an institution like Christianity or Islam.


Well, not really. A-theism is a belief system about the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. An individual has chosen a postion of disbelief about a some-thing or some concept that explains every and all questions about human reality and existence (i.e., an axiom). That serves as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments. As such, it seems the A-theist is in a precarious position when parsing the notion of (free) Will and determinism, no? For instance, the will is not a concrete thing you can see, touch, smell, hear, or taste. And determinism would infer either a final cause or a sense of eternity (infinite regress).


Please try to finally understand this very simple concept ... ATHEISM - IS - SIMPLY - DISBELIEF - IN - MYTHS. That's all.

I'm not following that at all. What is a "myth"?

You are an atheist too - to Zarathustra, Zeus and Odin. How does your atheism towards Zeus explains everything. What is the purpose of your atheism towards Zeus? Do you now see how incoherent your questions are?
I'm not following you there either. In Christianity, the person known as Jesus existed in a history book. Of course, by many accounts from antiquity, he was an archetype of Love. Simply out of curiosity, you think it's inappropriate to capitalize the 'universal axiom' or postulate of Love, and/or the concept of love?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

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Sy Borg wrote: October 12th, 2022, 4:38 pm [To 3017Metaphysician:]
You expect atheism to provide answers as if atheists were not atheists, but different kinds of theists reading from the Atheism Bible. This is made clear by your capitalisation of the word, "atheism". Atheism is a concept, like theism, not an institution like Christianity or Islam.

Please try to finally understand this very simple concept ... ATHEISM - IS - SIMPLY - DISBELIEF - IN - MYTHS. That's all.
That's not the whole picture, I don't think. There are atheists who simply have no use for the concept of God, and happily get on with their lives without it. And then there are active Atheists, who actively assert the non-existence of God. The former are rational non-believers; the latter occupy a faith position no different from those they criticise. They don't simply disbelieve in myths, as you claim, they actively assert the untruth of those 'myths', without justification. In this, they are no different from most theists.
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 13th, 2022, 10:21 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 12th, 2022, 4:38 pm [To 3017Metaphysician:]
You expect atheism to provide answers as if atheists were not atheists, but different kinds of theists reading from the Atheism Bible. This is made clear by your capitalisation of the word, "atheism". Atheism is a concept, like theism, not an institution like Christianity or Islam.

Please try to finally understand this very simple concept ... ATHEISM - IS - SIMPLY - DISBELIEF - IN - MYTHS. That's all.
That's not the whole picture, I don't think. There are atheists who simply have no use for the concept of God, and happily get on with their lives without it. And then there are active Atheists, who actively assert the non-existence of God. The former are rational non-believers; the latter occupy a faith position no different from those they criticise. They don't simply disbelieve in myths, as you claim, they actively assert the untruth of those 'myths', without justification. In this, they are no different from most theists.
Those who don't think abut God at all are called apatheists. Those who actively reject God are called atheists.

Why is actively asserting the non-existence of God a faith? Is your active disbelief in Zeus a matter of your faith, or do you simply find the idea of deities to be obvious superstition?

Do you think I have hold a faith like a theist in believing that leprechauns don't live in my garden? That would make me an aleprechaunist. Since this is I have such a strong religious faith that leprechauns do not live in my garden, I could then start the Church of Aleprechaunism.

The correct label for people who don't believe obviously silly things is "reasonable".
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Re: Atheism and Free Will

Post by LuckyR »

Sy Borg wrote: October 13th, 2022, 3:52 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 13th, 2022, 10:21 am
Sy Borg wrote: October 12th, 2022, 4:38 pm [To 3017Metaphysician:]
You expect atheism to provide answers as if atheists were not atheists, but different kinds of theists reading from the Atheism Bible. This is made clear by your capitalisation of the word, "atheism". Atheism is a concept, like theism, not an institution like Christianity or Islam.

Please try to finally understand this very simple concept ... ATHEISM - IS - SIMPLY - DISBELIEF - IN - MYTHS. That's all.
That's not the whole picture, I don't think. There are atheists who simply have no use for the concept of God, and happily get on with their lives without it. And then there are active Atheists, who actively assert the non-existence of God. The former are rational non-believers; the latter occupy a faith position no different from those they criticise. They don't simply disbelieve in myths, as you claim, they actively assert the untruth of those 'myths', without justification. In this, they are no different from most theists.
Those who don't think abut God at all are called apatheists. Those who actively reject God are called atheists.

Why is actively asserting the non-existence of God a faith? Is your active disbelief in Zeus a matter of your faith, or do you simply find the idea of deities to be obvious superstition?

Do you think I have hold a faith like a theist in believing that leprechauns don't live in my garden? That would make me an aleprechaunist. Since this is I have such a strong religious faith that leprechauns do not live in my garden, I could then start the Church of Aleprechaunism.

The correct label for people who don't believe obviously silly things is "reasonable".
Exactly. Atheists don't believe in 4000 gods. Theists don't believe in 3999 gods and believe in 1 god. Not that big of a différence, statistically.
"As usual... it depends."
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