Atheism and Free Will

[Terrapin Station]

But the fact is information in the non/sub/unconscious can be triggered to become a conscious thought. Further, this "potential consciousness" - repressed or forgotten memories or memories that were never consciously noticed, can have a tangible impact on a person, eg. repressed memories and trauma.

Would you say that washes can be "triggered to become rivers"?

No, but old, lost hoardings can be found. Likewise, repressed and forgotten memories can be brought into the conscious arena. Yet these memories can lie in potentia for decades, unconsciously impacting on a person's life. This is a proven fact in PTSD therapy, not conjecture.

"Forgotten memories can be brought into the conscious arena" would be like saying "Forgotten rivers can be unhidden"--as if they existed just the same as always, only somehow they're invisible or hidden when we see a dry wash. In other words, there's no reason to believe that a memory exists just as it does when it's conscious, only it's "hidden" to us. The whole point is that there's no good reason to say that this stuff is just like mental phenomena, only it's "hidden," rather than supposing that brain structure makes it so that just in case the right processes are occurring, there will be particular mental phenomena. (Again, just like a river versus a wash depending on precipitation (and other climatic and environmental) processes.)

[Gertie]

How could I have one comprehensive conscious experience if there is not a single, indivisible thing that experiences everything I experience? It seems like the alternative would be for many things to each experience part of my experiences, but in that case, why would that not be multiple separate consciousnesses? I feel like a single thing, so why should I ever think I might not be? If I'm not a single thing, what exactly is it that feels like I am?

My view is that the way conscious experience manifests is part of it. As a first person pov correlated with a specific physical body, located in space and time.

But there is an issue re unity, because we now know the brain is comprised of different subsystems which specifics types of conscious experience correlate to - the visual system, the memory system, etc. However all these systems are inter-connected via neurons, constantly being fired in new combinations depending on the stimuli (some manifesting in conscious experience, some not).

But still, you'd expect this to result in a confusing cacophany of sensations, emotions, thoughts, memories, etc. Making them basically incoherent and useless. So to be evolutionarily useful there needs to be a parallel evolution of integrating, focussing, filtering going on, to end up with some overall coherent, functionally useful experiential system. A unified field of consciousness which incorporates the subsystems, without it being over-whelmingly confusing. Which is what complex human conscious experience is like.

And I think this all adds up to the sense of being a discrete, unified self, a Me.

Rather than there being a self which is something separate, watching all this play out. It kind of feels like there is, but I don't think there is this extra something which is a self, a separate homunculus mini-me, or soul, or whatever.

[Sy Borg]

But the fact is information in the non/sub/unconscious can be triggered to become a conscious thought. Further, this "potential consciousness" - repressed or forgotten memories or memories that were never consciously noticed, can have a tangible impact on a person, eg. repressed memories and trauma.

Would you say that washes can be "triggered to become rivers"?

No, but old, lost hoardings can be found. Likewise, repressed and forgotten memories can be brought into the conscious arena. Yet these memories can lie in potentia for decades, unconsciously impacting on a person's life. This is a proven fact in PTSD therapy, not conjecture.

"Forgotten memories can be brought into the conscious arena" would be like saying "Forgotten rivers can be unhidden"--as if they existed just the same as always, only somehow they're invisible or hidden when we see a dry wash. In other words, there's no reason to believe that a memory exists just as it does when it's conscious, only it's "hidden" to us. The whole point is that there's no good reason to say that this stuff is just like mental phenomena, only it's "hidden," rather than supposing that brain structure makes it so that just in case the right processes are occurring, there will be particular mental phenomena. (Again, just like a river versus a wash depending on precipitation (and other climatic and environmental) processes.)

I don't see your objection. Forget rivers, the analogy doesn't wash (hur hur). It's obvious that memories can lie unaccessed for very long periods. It's also well-known that memories held as such can impact on people's lives, as in PTSD.

Why do you think you wake up in the morning as you? It's because of established neuronal pathways. Some of these pathways are locked way, either by choice or regular forgetfulness. Further, there's more detail still to be accessed under hypnosis.

[Terrapin Station]

It's obvious that memories can lie unaccessed for very long periods.

It's obvious how? What would evidence this? The fact that you can have the memory "again" doesn't. That only evidences that something about the brain makes it possible to have the same (actually, similar, but we can avoid nominalist aspects) mental content later. It in no way evidences that the mental content exists as mental content in some hidden way when it's not conscious.

It's also well-known that memories held as such can impact on people's lives, as in PTSD.

What would tell us that hidden memories are having that impact rather than something else?

Why do you think you wake up in the morning as you?

?

It's because of established neuronal pathways.

Which would amount to "hidden" mental content because?

[Pattern-chaser]

How could I have one comprehensive conscious experience if there is not a single, indivisible thing that experiences everything I experience? It seems like the alternative would be for many things to each experience part of my experiences, but in that case, why would that not be multiple separate consciousnesses? I feel like a single thing, so why should I ever think I might not be? If I'm not a single thing, what exactly is it that feels like I am?

Not "multiple separate consciousnesses", for sure. But multiple consciousnesses might be one way of looking at it?

[ManInTheMoon]

And I think this all adds up to the sense of being a discrete, unified self, a Me.

Rather than there being a self which is something separate, watching all this play out. It kind of feels like there is, but I don't think there is this extra something which is a self, a separate homunculus mini-me, or soul, or whatever.

But what is actually experiencing this sense of being you? There has to be something there that is you that experiences being you.

[Belindi]

And I think this all adds up to the sense of being a discrete, unified self, a Me.

Rather than there being a self which is something separate, watching all this play out. It kind of feels like there is, but I don't think there is this extra something which is a self, a separate homunculus mini-me, or soul, or whatever.

But what is actually experiencing this sense of being you? There has to be something there that is you that experiences being you.

You are your unique experience and nothing else; ManInTheMoon is ManInThe Moon the experience. When ManInTheMoon dies ManInTheMoon experience will stop .

[PoeticUniverse]

You are your unique experience and nothing else; ManInTheMoon is ManInThe Moon the experience. When ManInTheMoon dies ManInTheMoon experience will stop .

That's it! ManinTheMoon stops in between experiences, if there is such a time.

[ManInTheMoon]

If I am just my experience, what is it that is experiencing me? How can there be an experience without someone to experience?

[Gertie]

If I am just my experience, what is it that is experiencing me? How can there be an experience without someone to experience?

I explained how I think it works, why can't it be that? Being you is an experience. Which includes this sense of being a unified self.

Otherwise what is this You which 'has' the experience?

[Sy Borg]

It's obvious that memories can lie unaccessed for very long periods.

It's obvious how? What would evidence this? The fact that you can have the memory "again" doesn't. That only evidences that something about the brain makes it possible to have the same (actually, similar, but we can avoid nominalist aspects) mental content later. It in no way evidences that the mental content exists as mental content in some hidden way when it's not conscious.

It's also well-known that memories held as such can impact on people's lives, as in PTSD.

What would tell us that hidden memories are having that impact rather than something else?

Why do you think you wake up in the morning as you?

?

It's because of established neuronal pathways.

Which would amount to "hidden" mental content because?

Your argument is not coherent to me. If you are going to effectively claim that forgotten memories (later to be retrieved, proving their existence) are not mental content, then I have no answer.

As a victim of teen trauma, I can tell you that things you forget can still affect you subconsciously. How can you deny this when there is bountiful evidence? https://istss.org/public-resources/trau ... ood-trauma

Established neuronal pathways that are not accessed are latent mental content, or potential content. Since you like the river analogy, the landscape of our brain is shaped by experience, with each neuronal pathway being like a river, stream or creek. These dry up at times but the shape remains, should it rain again.

The ruts - the memories - forged in neuronal pathways are the reason you wake up as "you" in the morning. The conditioned neuronal pathways that make you "you" remain in potentia. Same with forgotten memories. The information is there in your brain, only unactivated.

[PoeticUniverse]

Being you is an experience. Which includes this sense of being a unified self.

Yes.

Conscious experiences are of qualia as reality based apparitions honed in the early years and onward from outward in and inward out into what is the best guess for the model and so soon one can tell a bottle of milk apart from what’s else. It’s not like the waves have a label on them saying that they came from the bottle but that one kept estimating the separate object into the best representation. Well, there is a bit of help in that light waves peel information of an object.

In a night dream, the apparitions and phantasms are as true ghosts in that they have no outside basis, but the same world-simulating model is being employed, already having its best guess available.

The identification of you as a self is also an experience as a best guess estimate.

ManinTheMoon stops in his tracks, his mind gone blank for an instant, he being stopped, but then he soon came back by having more experiences.

[ManInTheMoon]

If I am just my experience, what is it that is experiencing me? How can there be an experience without someone to experience?

I explained how I think it works, why can't it be that? Being you is an experience. Which includes this sense of being a unified self.

Otherwise what is this You which 'has' the experience?

I don't think you understood the question. What is it that is actually experiencing being me, if it's not me? I must be the one that experiences being me. There cannot be an experience that is not experienced by someone.

[Belindi]

If I am just my experience, what is it that is experiencing me? How can there be an experience without someone to experience?

I explained how I think it works, why can't it be that? Being you is an experience. Which includes this sense of being a unified self.

Otherwise what is this You which 'has' the experience?

I don't think you understood the question. What is it that is actually experiencing being me, if it's not me? I must be the one that experiences being me. There cannot be an experience that is not experienced by someone.

ManInTheMoon is the centre of ManInTheMoon experiences. ManInTheMoon knows nothing other than ManInThe Moon experiences. When ManInThe Moon says "Me" and "I" he refers to ManInTheMoon experiences.

ManInTheMoon remembered past experiences is what ManInThe Moon thinks he is. ManInTheMoon is experiences of memories and is also experiences of the future as it happens

[Terrapin Station]

It's obvious that memories can lie unaccessed for very long periods.

It's obvious how? What would evidence this? The fact that you can have the memory "again" doesn't. That only evidences that something about the brain makes it possible to have the same (actually, similar, but we can avoid nominalist aspects) mental content later. It in no way evidences that the mental content exists as mental content in some hidden way when it's not conscious.

It's also well-known that memories held as such can impact on people's lives, as in PTSD.

What would tell us that hidden memories are having that impact rather than something else?

Why do you think you wake up in the morning as you?

?

It's because of established neuronal pathways.

Which would amount to "hidden" mental content because?

Your argument is not coherent to me. If you are going to effectively claim that forgotten memories (later to be retrieved, proving their existence) are not mental content, then I have no answer.

As a victim of teen trauma, I can tell you that things you forget can still affect you subconsciously. How can you deny this when there is bountiful evidence? https://istss.org/public-resources/trau ... ood-trauma

Established neuronal pathways that are not accessed are latent mental content, or potential content. Since you like the river analogy, the landscape of our brain is shaped by experience, with each neuronal pathway being like a river, stream or creek. These dry up at times but the shape remains, should it rain again.

The ruts - the memories - forged in neuronal pathways are the reason you wake up as "you" in the morning. The conditioned neuronal pathways that make you "you" remain in potentia. Same with forgotten memories. The information is there in your brain, only unactivated.

So with the water analogy, the "potential river" (etc.--whatever water features we want to use) is not literally a river. But it has a lot to do with what the river is going to be like when there's enough water present.