Atheism is not Logical
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
That quote, and there are others, by Einstein is one of the dumbest I ever read. It goes to show that even a genius can be an idiot at times.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 11:00 am
"... let us be reminded of the infamous quote that is central to my argument from Einstein, that suggested sentience as perhaps relevant to the human condition and one’s dis-belief in a God.:
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
Since I'm not an Atheist, is that statement from Einstein false? The reason I ask is after reviewing your contribution to the OP, it seems painfully obvious that you are angry about something (?).
But of course Einstein said it which means to most people that nothing he ever said could possibly be stupid.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
Yes, I started to parse the logic. Sculptor seemed to have fallen victim to the Einsteinian 'grudge' meme (see OP).
I do think a separate thread about Deconstruction may be in order though...
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
Teg!Tegularius wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 1:46 pmThat quote, and there are others, by Einstein is one of the dumbest I ever read. It goes to show that even a genius can be an idiot at times.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 11:00 am
"... let us be reminded of the infamous quote that is central to my argument from Einstein, that suggested sentience as perhaps relevant to the human condition and one’s dis-belief in a God.:
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
Since I'm not an Atheist, is that statement from Einstein false? The reason I ask is after reviewing your contribution to the OP, it seems painfully obvious that you are angry about something (?).
But of course Einstein said it which means to most people that nothing he ever said could possibly be stupid.
Unfortunately, and please don't take this the wrong way (because I know this topic can be emotionally charged for some) your remarks only serve to provide support for Einstein meme/OP. No? In other words, you just committed the classic logical fallacy of Ad Hom..
This will capture your concern/your attack of one's character rather than the issue:
Ad Hominem: Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person [Einstein] making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong".
And so, the philosophical question for Tegularious is: Do you find Einstein's meme false, and if so, provide the supporting evidence to refute same. Albeit, try to use logic(and not emotion) this time!
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
Interesting wording. I am not sure I've heard of a theist who focused on "the music of the spheres". It certainly isn't part of the Bible, a time when the Earth, Moon and Sun were the only known spheres, with the stars considered to be speckles in a dome over the Earth.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 11:00 am... from Einstein, that suggested sentience as perhaps relevant to the human condition and one’s dis-belief in a God.:
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
"The music of the spheres" ... the dance of nature at large scales. Einstein had a famously strong and accurate creative imagination that allowed him to visualise and better conceptualise the phenomena he studied. If Einstein was visualising the scale of stars and planets in a vivid manner, it's perfectly reasonable that he could feel these entities are godlike; their scale is simply beyond our ken, aside from in sketchy abstractions.
Who can vividly imagine the mass that lies beneath their feet - 12,742 kms of it? Our brains aren't made for it, although we can try it as Einstein would have surely done.
I find that a sincere attempt to as vividly as possible imagine the scale of the Earth and other large celestial objects inevitably brings a sense of awe (and sometimes makes we want to pee with vertigo lol). I suggest that awe is fundamental to Einstein quotes such as these.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
Passionate and dogmatic dislike of religion may be caused by a catchy saying, or traumatic experiences, or inability to understand symbolic images and other metaphors. I myself think the latter is most commonly the case when it comes to most sweeping condemnations of religions on these pages. Dogmatic refusal to countenance that some religions are particularly capable of evolving is also probably due to similar lack of imagination.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 2:27 pmYes, I started to parse the logic. Sculptor seemed to have fallen victim to the Einsteinian 'grudge' meme (see OP).
I do think a separate thread about Deconstruction may be in order though...
Do you think that subjective feelings spoil the reasonableness of a communication? I don't. A passionately subjective piece does not indicate lack of insight into the writer's own feelings or prejudices. As for subjectivity itself, it's essential to living and learning.
By all means, do start a thread on deconstruction. However I submit you will begin on a wrong assumption if you think the transmitter's feelings enter into any deconstruction process. It's the text itself that is the subject of desconstruction, not the transmitter nor the receiver.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
Some people have really developed fantastic descriptions of spirits and gods operating in unseen worlds and these pictures are not just taken as fiction. I am talking of writers who believe in Atlantis and spiritual beings, who existed before the material universe began. Such ideas appear in writings about beings who came to the earth, such as described by van Daniken. In addition, there is the whole legend of the Nephilim, who were half human, but had fallen from a higher state beyond the physical through procreation with mortal beings.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
I do believe I've read the meaning of Ad Hom before I don't know how many times. Also, there are endless examples of it in endless variations on philosophy forums. But I do thank you for pointing out what was already obvious from the first post I ever made.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 2:37 pmTeg!Tegularius wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 1:46 pmThat quote, and there are others, by Einstein is one of the dumbest I ever read. It goes to show that even a genius can be an idiot at times.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 11:00 am
"... let us be reminded of the infamous quote that is central to my argument from Einstein, that suggested sentience as perhaps relevant to the human condition and one’s dis-belief in a God.:
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
Since I'm not an Atheist, is that statement from Einstein false? The reason I ask is after reviewing your contribution to the OP, it seems painfully obvious that you are angry about something (?).
But of course Einstein said it which means to most people that nothing he ever said could possibly be stupid.
Unfortunately, and please don't take this the wrong way (because I know this topic can be emotionally charged for some) your remarks only serve to provide support for Einstein meme/OP. No? In other words, you just committed the classic logical fallacy of Ad Hom..
This will capture your concern/your attack of one's character rather than the issue:
Ad Hominem: Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person [Einstein] making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong".
And so, the philosophical question for Tegularious is: Do you find Einstein's meme false, and if so, provide the supporting evidence to refute same. Albeit, try to use logic(and not emotion) this time!
What I prefer to have explained instead is how the Einstein quote qualifies as a meme?
This is the dictionary definition of meme...
The quote given is Einstein's view or opinion which does not correspond to any cultural artifact conveyed across the cultural landscape. He was also one of the least consistent when expressing his views on religion.: an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from one person to another in a culture
This one, for example, makes sense and opposite to the one you quoted...
“The word God is for me,” Einstein wrote, “nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me.”
But even this has no bearing on the absurdity of ... “The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
Note the highlighted. Analyze it! What does the "music of the spheres" - whatever that's supposed to mean - have to do with whether one is religious? His avowed belief in Spinoza's god, near to atheism, has almost zero correspondence with traditional religion, that is, beliefs established and incorporated as memes carried forward for centuries or millennia. In addition, those who heard, figuratively "the music of the spheres" were most likely to be tortured and burned. Consider Giordano Bruno who may have heard that music most intensely how he was made to suffer more by slow burning.
I could go on but this is long enough. In any event, who cares what Einstein thought about god! Do you really believe he had greater insight into that subject than anyone else?
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
The Spacious Firmament on high,
With all the blue Ethereal Sky,
And spangled Heav'ns, a Shining Frame,
Their great Original proclaim:
Th' unwearied Sun, from day to day,
Does his Creator's Pow'r display,
And publishes to every Land
The Work of an Almighty Hand.
Soon as the Evening Shades prevail,
The Moon takes up the wondrous Tale,
And nightly to the list'ning Earth
Repeats the Story of her Birth:
Whilst all the Stars that round her burn,
And all the Planets, in their turn,
Confirm the Tidings as they rowl,
And spread the Truth from Pole to Pole.
What though, in solemn Silence, all
Move round the dark terrestrial Ball?
What tho' nor real Voice nor Sound
Amid their radiant Orbs be found?
In Reason's Ear they all rejoice,
And utter forth a glorious Voice,
For ever singing, as they shine,
The Hand that made us is Divine.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
What makes you think that Gandalf is a fantasy?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 10:53 amI don't know, which is rather the point. I've complained elsewhere about others demanding a precise definition. A precise definition is not always required. But to ask for a general description of what is meant is reasonable, I think?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 10:28 amFor one, we're not talking about a sensory fantasy here, right? In other words, it's not something that we're saying is a hallucination basically.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 9:32 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 20th, 2021, 8:46 am It's not about whether we reject 'fantasy', but how we recognise it, and how we distinguish it from non-fantasy?What test? I asked a simple question, and it is clear you cannot answer it. You decry "fantasy", and you say we should avoid it, but you offer no means by which "fantasy" might be recognised, and how it might be distinguished from that which is not "fantasy". It seems you rail against something you can't even describe?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 20th, 2021, 11:02 am Seriously?
If it looks, smells, tastes, feels like fantasy than it probably is.
Ask yourself what distiguishes a religion from fantasy?
If the answer is nothing, then religion is also fantasy.
So tell me about any version of God that you think is convincing and I'll show you why it cannot pass the test.
And that the chair you are sitting on is real?
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
No. WTF is just a expression of surprise. It's all very well making up your own jargon, but you might be asked to explain it.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 11:00 amSculptor!Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 20th, 2021, 4:29 pmYou are not interested in what I have to say so why ask.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 20th, 2021, 12:17 pmSculptor1 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 5:53 pm
Why?
Don't you aslo reject fantasy as truth? I thought we all did that?
The evidence of god is all from a jewish myth. I treat it in the same way as Homer and Virgil, or in the same way as Beowulf and King Arthur. Why would you think otherwise?
You might like to extend your POV to include the foundational myths of Cambodia and Laos too. Ancient Egypt, South America: all very interesting and conforming to what you might call cultural logic. But far from truth.
I may have missed it, did you explain your 'fantasy v truth' yet? Just an observation, and I hope I'm wrong, but your responses seem to feed into the Einsteinian 'grudge' meme. Are you angry about something? Are you an Atheist?
WTF is an Einsteinian 'grudge' meme?
Is your "WTF" an emotional or logical response? If it is emotional, then it is quite possible that it may to feed into this meme (from the OP):
Interesting but I can't see how this amounts to a Einsteinian 'grudge' meme.
"... let us be reminded of the infamous quote that is central to my argument from Einstein, that suggested sentience as perhaps relevant to the human condition and one’s dis-belief in a God.:
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."
Since I'm not an Atheist, is that statement from Einstein false? The reason I ask is after reviewing your contribution to the OP, it seems painfully obvious that you are angry about something (?).
Poor constantly misunderstood and often misquoted out of context Einstein is many things to many people. Curiously enough he concurs that religion was a set of opiated chains (excuse his mixed metaphor). But he was pressing on with his own unique brand of atheism despite what you might gather from that quote to embrace his wonder of his own godless universe.
Whatever he was pigeon-holing as a "fanatical" does not mean any and all atheists as you might want to caricature your interlocutors. That would just be an asinine strawman. If you want to go down that route that is your prerogative.
I have to inform you that just because people disagree with you and despite you insulting them as "illogical" does not give you the right to ask if they are angry.
You might do better to try and back up your initial assertion, (for which you have failed to make ANY progress) rather than play minister or councillor
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
SB!Sy Borg wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 8:19 pmInteresting wording. I am not sure I've heard of a theist who focused on "the music of the spheres". It certainly isn't part of the Bible, a time when the Earth, Moon and Sun were the only known spheres, with the stars considered to be speckles in a dome over the Earth.3017Metaphysician wrote: ↑October 21st, 2021, 11:00 am... from Einstein, that suggested sentience as perhaps relevant to the human condition and one’s dis-belief in a God.:
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”
"The music of the spheres" ... the dance of nature at large scales. Einstein had a famously strong and accurate creative imagination that allowed him to visualise and better conceptualise the phenomena he studied. If Einstein was visualising the scale of stars and planets in a vivid manner, it's perfectly reasonable that he could feel these entities are godlike; their scale is simply beyond our ken, aside from in sketchy abstractions.
Who can vividly imagine the mass that lies beneath their feet - 12,742 kms of it? Our brains aren't made for it, although we can try it as Einstein would have surely done.
I find that a sincere attempt to as vividly as possible imagine the scale of the Earth and other large celestial objects inevitably brings a sense of awe (and sometimes makes we want to pee with vertigo lol). I suggest that awe is fundamental to Einstein quotes such as these.
On a broader note, I would certainly have to agree. Einstein appreciated (much like Hawking/Atheist) your "awe" in the natural order of things (the universe/cosmos), and more often than not posited such concepts of a God despite its cognitively 'intrinsic' paradox and contradiction, which is 'ancillary' to that science. In the same 'spirit' of the OP (an Existential view of this problem), our own conscious existence-consciousness itself- cannot be explained logically. It is logically impossible to explain, much less describe, yet still exists.
This similar sense of "awe" 'resonates' in Antiquity which dates back to the development of the Christian/OT (Sages from the Wisdom Book literature) as early Greek philosophy was often borrowed/interchanged from same. For example (Ecclesiastes) speaks to that similar sense of paradox and finitude only on a more relatable human scale.
Anyway, for those who may not be familiar with the music of the spheres 'metaphor':
The concept of the "music of the spheres" incorporates the metaphysical principle that mathematical relationships express qualities or "tones" of energy which manifest in numbers, visual angles, shapes and sounds – all connected within a pattern of proportion. Pythagoras first identified that the pitch of a musical note is in inverse proportion to the length of the string that produces it, and that intervals between harmonious sound frequencies form simple numerical ratios.[1] Pythagoras proposed that the Sun, Moon and planets all emit their own unique hum based on their orbital revolution,[2] and that the quality of life on Earth reflects the tenor of celestial sounds which are physically imperceptible to the human ear.[…..
….defining musical harmonies, including consonance and dissonance, intervals (including the problems of just tuning), their relations to string length which was a discovery made by Pythagoras, and what makes music pleasurable to listen to in his opinion. In the fourth book Kepler presents a metaphysical basis for this system, along with arguments for why the harmony of the worlds appeals to the intellectual soul in the same manner as the harmony of music appeals to the human soul.
Certainly, as it relates to mathematics, in music, we have diatonic scales that are used in the west, which btw, music theory confers no biological survival value yet exists
Oh, and BTW, I'm not a Theologian/Theist proper; I'm a Christian Existentialist.
Happy Friday!
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
I always loved that poem since my teens and still do. One can be a non-believer and still appreciate the sentiment and how it's expressed, just as one can completely surrender to the sacred music of Bach, Handel, Haydn and Mozart.Belindi wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2021, 6:18 am Here are the lyrics of a hymn in standard hymn books. The science is outdated now and for many the metaphysics too are irrelevant.But the sentiments of awe and wonder are same. The imagery is beautiful. Awe and wonder are indispensable for reasoning and mature men.
The Spacious Firmament on high,
With all the blue Ethereal Sky,
And spangled Heav'ns, a Shining Frame,
Their great Original proclaim:
Th' unwearied Sun, from day to day,
Does his Creator's Pow'r display,
And publishes to every Land
The Work of an Almighty Hand.
Soon as the Evening Shades prevail,
The Moon takes up the wondrous Tale,
And nightly to the list'ning Earth
Repeats the Story of her Birth:
Whilst all the Stars that round her burn,
And all the Planets, in their turn,
Confirm the Tidings as they rowl,
And spread the Truth from Pole to Pole.
What though, in solemn Silence, all
Move round the dark terrestrial Ball?
What tho' nor real Voice nor Sound
Amid their radiant Orbs be found?
In Reason's Ear they all rejoice,
And utter forth a glorious Voice,
For ever singing, as they shine,
The Hand that made us is Divine.
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Re: Atheism is not Logical
Yes, there seems to be no end to humans' "fantastic" imaginations and the taking of them as real in our demon/spirit haunted world, but for Atlantis which we can actually look for.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2021, 5:32 am Some people have really developed fantastic descriptions of spirits and gods operating in unseen worlds and these pictures are not just taken as fiction. I am talking of writers who believe in Atlantis and spiritual beings, who existed before the material universe began. Such ideas appear in writings about beings who came to the earth, such as described by van Daniken. In addition, there is the whole legend of the Nephilim, who were half human, but had fallen from a higher state beyond the physical through procreation with mortal beings.
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