Atheism is not Logical

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sculptor1 »

Sy Borg wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:29 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:34 am
It's not a matter of apprehending objectively or subjectively, it's the nature of the phenomenon. That is not only relevant, it is key. Your responses suggest that you doubt that subjective phenomena exist.
Subjective phenomena?? Have you thought about what that phrase means?
Gandalf is a subjective phenomenon. To that extent he exists, in people's minds.
So is the tooth fairy and Santa. Superman might seem very real when you are watching the latest blockbuster from DC, as without that dispension of disbelief you could not enjoy any drama. But I suggest that outside the world of books and film and other fantasies we are best placed to understand the world as it is, and not how we would wish it to be.
So much is obvious.
It's called imagination, and atheist agree that god is an imaginary figure. So no, there is no denial of the subjective. IN fact atheism affirms that god is nothing more.
Santa too has a subjective reality, or rather, multiple subjective realities, with each Santa that exists in a child's mind being somewhat different. Just because a reality is exclusive/subjective does not make it unreal, just not available for general consumption.

Santa is as real within young children's heads as material things. Santa's reality may be exclusive to the child's imagination, but it is still potent, adding excitement to Christmas and encouraging children to behave. Creative imagination is a powerful part of human mentality. It's logical to use a capacity if one has it. Trouble is, Biblical literalism has confused many theists, hence their many pointless attempts to prove that God exists objectively as a physical being.

Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:34 amAs for being certain. Atheism says nothing about certainty.
You can't say atheism is one thing or another because the term is necessarily as defined as the term "God", which has numerous definitions and conceptions. However, when individual atheists display contempt for theists, they make clear their level of certainty.

Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:34 amAs to knowing the nature of the universe, that too is a delusion of the theist. I do not regard any version of god as adequate to do the job of explaining the universe, and so the idea that atheist is a affirmation of such an understanding could not be more wrong.
Theism lacks basic humility.
I humbly accept that we are never going to know the answer to the ultimate question. But one thing I do know; no version of god begins to answer that question is any way whatever and is essentialy illogical and absurd.
Who says that gods must explain the universe? That's what science and philosophy are for. Deities are ultimately personal. Churches and their followers down the ages have pushed public piety, but that is just a politicised display behaviour designed to boost the status of the overtly pious (who so often end up being busted for private misdeeds).
I think you have confused "imagination" with "reality" in your post.
The logicality of atheism is not diminished with imagination, as imagination is not the same as "reality".
thanks for playing
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Steve3007 »

Tegularius wrote:
Steve3007 wrote:My point was that if we were to say "the difference between 'pretty sure' and 'certain' is so trivial that we can treat them as synonymous" then the statements of science could be treated as being like the statements of mathematics in that the statements of science are no more than "pretty sure" but the statements of mathematics (being tautologies) are certain.
I don’t believe that any slight credibility gap between “pretty sure & certain” would entail the near generalization that one domain can be stated in terms of another, science and mathematics having separate ontologies. To do so sounds to me like a classic category error.
I agree that it would be wrong to say that one of those domains can be stated in terms of the other. I hope my use of the term "in that" clarified that.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Steve3007 »

Nietzsche wrote:The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man.
Sounds like something a James Bond supervillain would say while stroking a cat and addressing world leaders via a conference call on Teams. Lighten up Fred.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 5:05 pm I am content to know what can be known and to reject fantasy.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:02 am What is the definition or description of fantasy that you use to recognise and reject it? Is it just something you consider to be fantastic?
Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:53 pm Why?
Don't you aslo reject fantasy as truth? I thought we all did that?

The evidence of god is all from a jewish myth. I treat it in the same way as Homer and Virgil, or in the same way as Beowulf and King Arthur. Why would you think otherwise?
You might like to extend your POV to include the foundational myths of Cambodia and Laos too. Ancient Egypt, South America: all very interesting and conforming to what you might call cultural logic. But far from truth.
You're not answering the question I asked. It's not about whether we reject 'fantasy', but how we recognise it, and how we distinguish it from non-fantasy?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 20th, 2021, 8:46 am
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 5:05 pm I am content to know what can be known and to reject fantasy.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:02 am What is the definition or description of fantasy that you use to recognise and reject it? Is it just something you consider to be fantastic?
Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:53 pm Why?
Don't you aslo reject fantasy as truth? I thought we all did that?

The evidence of god is all from a jewish myth. I treat it in the same way as Homer and Virgil, or in the same way as Beowulf and King Arthur. Why would you think otherwise?
You might like to extend your POV to include the foundational myths of Cambodia and Laos too. Ancient Egypt, South America: all very interesting and conforming to what you might call cultural logic. But far from truth.
You're not answering the question I asked. It's not about whether we reject 'fantasy', but how we recognise it, and how we distinguish it from non-fantasy?
Seriously?
If it looks, smells, tastes, feels like fantasy than it probably is.
Ask yourself what distiguishes a religion from fantasy?
If the answer is nothing, then religion is also fantasy.
So tell me about any version of God that you think is convincing and I'll show you why it cannot pass the test.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Ecurb »

Sy Borg wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:29 pm

Who says that gods must explain the universe? That's what science and philosophy are for. Deities are ultimately personal. Churches and their followers down the ages have pushed public piety, but that is just a politicised display behaviour designed to boost the status of the overtly pious (who so often end up being busted for private misdeeds).
Genesis 2:
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God "formed" man-- even the atheists -- whether He exists ourside of human imagination or not. The Christian God (imaginary though he may be) has had such an influence on Western culture that anyone living in the West today has been, to some extent, created by HIm. Man makes himself (that's the title of a good book by V. Gordon Childe). While we are created biologically, we are also created by our cultures. Without language, for example, our modes of thinking, life, reasoning and social interaction would be very different than they are. It is perhaps also true that without religion our lives would be very different than they are.

When atheists try to disparage God by calling him a "fairy tale", they fail. That's because fairy tales also help make us what we are (to a lesser extent than religion). I tried to point that out when I quoted G.K. Chesterton's chapter "The Ethics of Elfland". Our ethics, our modes of thinking, and our vision of the world are influenced (even "created") by both religion and fairy tales. They probably have more influence on human ethics (even those of the atheists posting here) than philosophy.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Steve3007 »

Ecurb wrote:...Our ethics, our modes of thinking, and our vision of the world are influenced (even "created") by both religion and fairy tales. They probably have more influence on human ethics (even those of the atheists posting here) than philosophy.
That's true of all aspects of the culture in which we live. Not just religion and fairy tales. We create them and they create us. For example, just this afternoon on my family WhatsApp group my younger sister posted a link to a story told by a children's TV presenter from the 1970's that me and both my sisters grew up with. It was on a scratchy vinyl record that we used to play endlessly on a small portable record player. That, including the scratches, made me (us) just as much as any other piece of culture did. In fact, there's a particular scratch on a particular part of the record that is special to us.

(The story was told by a guy called Brian Cant. Alas now dead.)
User avatar
3017Metaphysician
Posts: 1621
Joined: July 9th, 2021, 8:59 am

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:53 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:02 am
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 5:05 pm I am content to know what can be known and to reject fantasy.
You have recently posted about the need to define what is meant by "God" so that it/he/she can be accepted or denied.

In the same way, I wonder how you can reject "fantasy"? What is the definition or description of fantasy that you use to recognise and reject it? Is it just something you consider to be fantastic?
Why?
Don't you aslo reject fantasy as truth? I thought we all did that?

The evidence of god is all from a jewish myth. I treat it in the same way as Homer and Virgil, or in the same way as Beowulf and King Arthur. Why would you think otherwise?
You might like to extend your POV to include the foundational myths of Cambodia and Laos too. Ancient Egypt, South America: all very interesting and conforming to what you might call cultural logic. But far from truth.

I may have missed it, did you explain your 'fantasy v truth' yet? Just an observation, and I hope I'm wrong, but your responses seem to feed into the Einsteinian 'grudge' meme. Are you angry about something? Are you an Atheist?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Ecurb »

Steve3007 wrote: October 20th, 2021, 12:15 pm

That's true of all aspects of the culture in which we live. Not just religion and fairy tales. We create them and they create us. For example, just this afternoon on my family WhatsApp group my younger sister posted a link to a story told by a children's TV presenter from the 1970's that me and both my sisters grew up with. It was on a scratchy vinyl record that we used to play endlessly on a small portable record player. That, including the scratches, made me (us) just as much as any other piece of culture did. In fact, there's a particular scratch on a particular part of the record that is special to us.

(The story was told by a guy called Brian Cant. Alas now dead.)
Of course I agree. But it is also true that shared cultural memes (like religion and fairy tales) have more overall influence on our culture, and thus our thinking, than personal favorites (although personal favorites can have a big influence, too).
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14995
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sy Borg »

Ecurb wrote: October 20th, 2021, 12:07 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:29 pm

Who says that gods must explain the universe? That's what science and philosophy are for. Deities are ultimately personal. Churches and their followers down the ages have pushed public piety, but that is just a politicised display behaviour designed to boost the status of the overtly pious (who so often end up being busted for private misdeeds).
Genesis 2:
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God "formed" man-- even the atheists -- whether He exists ourside of human imagination or not. The Christian God (imaginary though he may be) has had such an influence on Western culture that anyone living in the West today has been, to some extent, created by HIm.
My question was rhetorical, because I'd been speaking about subjective affects and suddenly Sculptor points to creation myths, as though God must be either accepted as the full package as described by the most literalist fundamentalists - or not at all.
PoeticUniverse
Posts: 638
Joined: April 4th, 2015, 7:25 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Sy Borg wrote: October 20th, 2021, 3:23 pm as though God must be either accepted as the full package as described by the most literalist fundamentalists - or not at all.
Well, at least as creating the universe, I'd say, since the full package of the Biblical Genesis doesn't hold up.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Steve3007 »

Ecurb wrote:Of course I agree. But it is also true that shared cultural memes (like religion and fairy tales) have more overall influence on our culture, and thus our thinking, than personal favorites (although personal favorites can have a big influence, too).
Yes, true, shared cultural memes do have a greater overall influence in that they're visible to a larger number of people. But personal memes, like the one I talked about, might collectively have a lot of influence too. Obviously the example I gave is very personal to me and my sisters. It's not even shared by our parents (although they've become aware of it because we often talk about such things as adults). But other small groups of people (e.g. families) probably have other personal memes.

On Christianity though, you're undoubtedly right that in the western world it forms part of the backdrop to almost everything. For example, it's probably not really possible to understand almost any work of western literature without some understanding of Christianity and its influence. And of course Christianity, and conflicts between its rival factions, is central to our history.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14995
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sy Borg »

PoeticUniverse wrote: October 20th, 2021, 3:34 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 20th, 2021, 3:23 pm as though God must be either accepted as the full package as described by the most literalist fundamentalists - or not at all.
Well, at least as creating the universe, I'd say, since the full package of the Biblical Genesis doesn't hold up.
I quite like the first page of Genesis - a metaphorical account of how ancient people of the time thought about the process of evolution.

The flaw is not in the writing so much as the literal interpretation of metaphorical work. It's not as though people don't understand metaphor. I'm yet to see anyone claim that the titular tiger in Rudyard Kipling's poem had caught fire.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sculptor1 »

Ecurb wrote: October 20th, 2021, 12:07 pm
Sy Borg wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:29 pm

Who says that gods must explain the universe? That's what science and philosophy are for. Deities are ultimately personal. Churches and their followers down the ages have pushed public piety, but that is just a politicised display behaviour designed to boost the status of the overtly pious (who so often end up being busted for private misdeeds).
Genesis 2:
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God "formed" man-- even the atheists -- whether He exists ourside of human imagination or not. The Christian God (imaginary though he may be) has had such an influence on Western culture that anyone living in the West today has been, to some extent, created by HIm. Man makes himself (that's the title of a good book by V. Gordon Childe). While we are created biologically, we are also created by our cultures. Without language, for example, our modes of thinking, life, reasoning and social interaction would be very different than they are. It is perhaps also true that without religion our lives would be very different than they are.

When atheists try to disparage God by calling him a "fairy tale", they fail. That's because fairy tales also help make us what we are (to a lesser extent than religion). I tried to point that out when I quoted G.K. Chesterton's chapter "The Ethics of Elfland". Our ethics, our modes of thinking, and our vision of the world are influenced (even "created") by both religion and fairy tales. They probably have more influence on human ethics (even those of the atheists posting here) than philosophy.
I did not know you were a Marxist, odd that you chose to mention a book of Childe that you will never read. :lol:
He would have been horrified that you tried to assocaite him with the god delusion.
Last edited by Sculptor1 on October 20th, 2021, 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Atheism is not Logical

Post by Sculptor1 »

3017Metaphysician wrote: October 20th, 2021, 12:17 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:53 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:02 am
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2021, 5:05 pm I am content to know what can be known and to reject fantasy.
You have recently posted about the need to define what is meant by "God" so that it/he/she can be accepted or denied.

In the same way, I wonder how you can reject "fantasy"? What is the definition or description of fantasy that you use to recognise and reject it? Is it just something you consider to be fantastic?
Why?
Don't you aslo reject fantasy as truth? I thought we all did that?

The evidence of god is all from a jewish myth. I treat it in the same way as Homer and Virgil, or in the same way as Beowulf and King Arthur. Why would you think otherwise?
You might like to extend your POV to include the foundational myths of Cambodia and Laos too. Ancient Egypt, South America: all very interesting and conforming to what you might call cultural logic. But far from truth.

I may have missed it, did you explain your 'fantasy v truth' yet? Just an observation, and I hope I'm wrong, but your responses seem to feed into the Einsteinian 'grudge' meme. Are you angry about something? Are you an Atheist?
You are not interested in what I have to say so why ask.
WTF is an Einsteinian 'grudge' meme?
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021