The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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PoeticUniverse
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The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by PoeticUniverse »

In the Book of Revelation, St. John the Divine in a prison ‘pipe-dreams’ the horrific culmination of All-Mighty God’s fully intended and all-foreseeing recipe for human life, one that God thought of, planned, designed, and wrought in His implementation of humans and their wide range of natures which curiously allows a full spectrum of behavior from very good to very bad, with a continuum in-between, a basis that, not surprisingly, expresses itself, accordingly, per its ingredients, in all its variations, time and time again, as we ever see.

While Revelation is at the end of the New Testament, it reads more like the vengeful God depictions encountered in the Old Testament. Some religions don’t include Revelation in their canon, nor the Book of Nephilim, who are mysterious beings or people mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. They are large and strong; some traditional Jewish explanations interpret them as fallen angels breeding with human.

The first failure of Creation, right off the bat, though, was that of the Angels’ constitution, for some of them rebelled, and it was this movement, headed by Satan and his cohorts, that went on to cause problems for the next Creation, that of humans, this interference occurring as soon as humans were manufactured in the Garden of Eden, for God allowed the evil spirits of the Devil and the other devils to operate on human life, and He still does, or so it is said by humans, who also say that God inspired them to write what is supernatural in the Bible. Lately, many God-inspired movies come out, as well, for God is up with the times per the media available to us.

Well, it took but very little time for the Adam and Eve in their God-given human nature to fail in Paradise and be driven out, yet they still retained the same God-invented nature that is capable of evil in its ‘freedom’, as similar in design to the Angels’ nature in their sown-in capability for ‘sin’, for which proof we need only revisit our history books’ sad events of misery and folly.

When God decided to break what would become one of his major commandments, he murdered and killed everyone on Earth but for Noah and his family, being that Noah had much more potential for good in him than the average, run of the mill God-made human, which thus ought to have provided for a good, fresh start, based on Noah’s apparently accidentally good recipe, such as we do with animal breeding; however, the human race continued to fail, this perhaps quite perplexing the All-Knowing One, or so it is said. Is He a poor craftsman? The Perfect God had made a mistake with the Great Flood and apologized, or so it is said, vowing, via the rainbow, not to use flooding again for annihilation; however, He cold use global warming.

At some time later, upon further human failure, it came to pass that the Great One figured that Moses’ bringing down of the Ten Commandments from a mountain would set humans straight and salvage His flawed invention; however, humans failed yet again, and again, over the ages, regardless of even many more prophets being sent, or so humans claimed, too, among lots of other tweaks and major reminders. If plagues and other punishing and devastating actions were truly rained onto humans by God, as humans also vouch, these catastrophes did little to prevent further failures—many of the usual epic proportions.

Thus, Jesus Divine was sent as the Son of God the Father to restore the human race to goodness, yet the last two thousand years indicate otherwise, but at least there was now a good alternative as opposite to the Mean God of old, yet, apparently, the horrific Father still remains in charge!

Jesus the Son was and is as good a role model as God the Father is not, and we note that not many humans would promote the following of God the Father’s examples, we apparently easily out-thinking Him. Who would condone murder, blame one’s own creations for their faults, or punish someone for what their ancestors did?

For avoidance, or a kind of denial of stating such unpleasant observations of badness or insanity, some came to label God’s actions as ‘mysterious ways’, this being in order to cover them up by making the situation sound better, as being called as ‘beyond’ instead of ‘insane’.

Paradox from myths ever arises and haunts the myth-takers. Jesus’ divinity was not accepted by many of those who were there at the time, but there is no reason to take on peoples’ beliefs, whether pro or con to one’s own aims, for people will believe or not what they will. So what if the Jewish and the Greek Orthodox who were there at the time rejected Jesus as Divine and still do so to the day. So what if the Romans crucified him. So what if 300 hundred years later Christianity came to flourish in the name of his Divinity.

Some say that one must accept Jesus’ Divinity to be ‘saved’, but it may be best for the religious not to phrase it that way, as one may be led into saying ‘Hell’ instead of ‘saved’—for the yet enduring ‘accept or burn’ scenario. It might be better to leave that out and say that acceptance will mean being with God in Heaven.

Overheard at the end of Sunday School is ‘You will have eternal life’. Better than using reward or punishment as a motive, for some, would be that one can do good for the sake of good because it is the right thing to do, for it is constructive when the giving doesn’t involve any ‘taking’.

So, then, the End of Days becomes the final ‘cure’ for what ails the human mammal—when God’s failed Experiment ends.

Souls, Heaven, Purgatory, Limbo, Hell, God, Devils, Angels, and more invisibles of the Supernatural Realm remain, though, as humans say, but can never show, which makes ‘faith’ to be an honest word, it admitting to the state of an unknowable unshowable, and thus not providing reason, yet it is still a fine haven for hopes and wishes granting nothing more.

Unfortunately, believers often preach and declare the invisible realm as if it were truth and fact, to all, including children and unsuspecting and/or innocent adults, which is misleading at best, and unethical or deceptive at worst, dishonest even, the preachers ever forgetting to note that it is a belief and so it may or may not be so. How easy it is to proclaim and assert something straight out, so authoritatively, than come out with a ‘maybe’ or a ‘could be’, which method will not entice as many members for the Church. Comfort and peace can arrive, though.

We will identify what’s really the blame for the human state of affairs, relieving God of that responsibility, but for now I note that in nature and in life the outputs are ever determined by the inputs, since there is not much possibility of ‘random’ in which outputs come from ‘Nothing’, as also by the will’s inputs (in the brain) when it subconsciously takes several hundred milliseconds to do the analysis that precedes the surfacing of a thought or an action; yet, many declare the will to be free of the will, making a person to be some sort of impossible mini first cause that would have no self and no consistency.

Thus, our God-given free or any kind of free will is a contradiction, although the God-given free will really means that it has to match His will.

In Revelation, we read that there are sinners so bad that they must be tortured for six months before they can be allowed to die. Well, that’ll show ‘em!

Anyway, enough about that kind of mentality at the end of the Bible, for now we will take a look at the ABCs of page one of the Bible, concerning the Creation, to reveal major mistruths and also to further get an indication of the value of the xyzs of the Bible. During these revelations, both the glory and the blame for the human condition will become clear.

A scientific course on Evolution is given in freshman High School Biology, unless you were deprived of it by attending a religious school that suppressed it. In any case, the information is widely available.

There is also the new Cosmos TV series, and even a third one. Humans were not made, as is, fully formed, just a few thousand years ago, immutable, as is said in the Bible, but are and were quite mutable, having evolved from just one tree of life during the Earth’s five billion years. Our DNA is still 98% the same as that of chimps.

We also know how solar systems form, which opposes the wishful Biblical fashion. The Universe at large is near 14 billion years old, during which time the stars formed from protons, electrons, and just a few basic atomic elements, the next atomic elements forming later, and the higher ones when stars went supernova or neutron stars collided.

The atoms went on to form molecules, cells, and life, the simpler ever going on to form the more complex, since there can be no stillness; so, it’s not the other way around, as is indicated in the Bible—that the complex life of humans came first, nor, it seems, that the Great Complexity could come First. The Bible gets both Cosmic and biological evolution wrong, it expressing their polar opposite inverse, for which there is wronger left.

For some reason of not much reason, some humans devised a golden template declaring that life requires a bigger Life for it to have come from, but then instantly threw this devalued template out the stain glass window by not requiring the bigger Life to have to come from an even greater LIFE, in fact leaping to the ultimate Complexity of a Person, God, as a system of Mind and INFINITE BEING whose system’s parts didn’t have to be more fundamental than the system they formed. Well, be that as it may, for we needn’t be concerned with what hasn’t established and so can’t be shown and thereby addressed, such as a Master, Invisible Person ruling all. Live and let live.

Let’s stick to what we can know. Surely, something is eternal, and so it always was and will be, because not anything can become from Nothing, plus, a Nothing can’t even be (something), for it doesn’t have anything to it. Some still say that Nothing has some possibility or capability to it to, such as to divide into positives and negatives, as sum-things, canceling at large, or such, but then, of course, this so-called ‘Nothing’ wasn’t a Nothing in the first place, for it had the something of a capability, potential, or possibility.

There are, though, opposites in Nature which do seem to make for the other, YinYang style, which are too many to list here, but, again, this capability is something and so it can’t turn the trick from Nothing.

Note on some balances: matter versus anti-matter; the negative potential energy of gravity countering the positive kinetic energy of stuff. There is only one stable main positive matter particle in free space—the proton, only one negative matter particle—the electron, and just one neutral energy particle—the photon. Apparently, there are only those number of ways to make stable particles. We ever find out more and more, such as quantum fields.

Anyway, there is no choice but for something to be Eternal, whatever it is, and so, as ungenerated and deathless, it ‘IS’, rather than ‘WAS’ or ‘WILL BE’, in the sense that it has no First or Last.

We cannot presume it to be a Person, but we can say that we are made of it, since there isn’t anything else, and that we appear to perceive it transmuting into what come and goes every zillionth of a second. This ‘IS’ has to be, with no choice and no option. It cannot not be and it cannot destruct itself. It didn’t get elected, win a talent show, or become Regent from royalty. If you really think there could have been Nothing, say, as reworded as a lack of anything at all, then note that this would still be the case, but it isn’t. Nothing is out, out, out. It cannot be or have been.

Nor do actions and events ever come to a standstill and stop, but continue, whether slowly or quickly. Nor is the vacuum a vacuum, for it contains energy, it remaining only a ‘vacuum’ in some terminology that indicates sparseness or an average level. So, Stillness gets added to our list of impossibles, along with it’s AWOL uncle, ‘Nothing’, and its air-headed cousin, Random Will, to go along with the impossible Beginning and End (of the eternal something), plus the idea of the Will somehow not serving as the Will and being free of that very will (regardless of what one wants to have as its inputs; add brain waves traveling through the air if you wish—they’re just another input to get analyzed toward an output). Note that the will is dynamic and so can change via learning from one fixed state to another.

Now, ‘free will’, on the surface, seems to be a great thing to have, for it promises one to be free of some constraint, which must be a good thing, right? Is the will/brain free to operate in the way that it does? Well, usually, outside of the control of parents, employers, owner, gods, and the like who can have forcing methods, so this kind of ‘free’ is not adding anything extra to the regular will, since mechanisms like the will are already free to operate.

In Earthly judicial courts, coercion/controlling/forcing/insanity, etc. can serve to have one judged as not responsible versus being held responsible. Note that this diametric is orthogonal to the other one—of a fixed will dependent on what one has become up to the moment versus a non-fixed (free?) will not depending on anything, if one still wants that in order to be ‘free’ (‘twould be a mess—not anything could function).

Does one want to be free of the consistency that the will provides, based on who we are from what we’ve become? No, this would not be the ‘free’ of free will. For the religious, does it mean to be able to be free of God’s will? No, for this is not ‘free’ since there will be consequences. What, then, is there for the will to be free of that is not some trivial finding? No one can say!

The closest we can answer this is the stance that compatibilists take, which again is no great shakes at all, for they still have that all events are determined, which strangely makes for a free will for them but for when one is coerced into doing something, since their ‘free’ state is merely the freedom from coercion, for they grant determinism. Did they consider that the coercion was always going to happen, too, in the whatever will be will be? Other restraints upon doing what we like are such as the weather, laws, people, and more. A truly free will seems to have no real meaning, yet still remains a kind of Holy Grail hope. Denial.

Sometimes phrases or words seem to be about something, like Infinity or Nothing, but that is usually that they cannot be gotten to, upon they getting defined. Note that Infinity concerns extent, such as length, width, and height, as so we add it to our list of impossibles since it cannot be capped and all be there, extant, at once, since more could always be added.

What ‘IS’, then, has to be finite, and the universe, too, although it is humongous, in the large, and similarly, minuscule, in the small, as if the tiniest must be barely there in order to be basic, continuous functions with no further parts. Quarks? Smaller?

Eternity, though, is not only possible, but mandatory. Its mechanics need more insight as to its implementation. Sometimes philosophy grants us a truth without us yet knowing the proof, for which case some might just say who cares about the proof since one already has the truth. All I can say is that humans are still ever curious, especially about the method of the fundamental basis.

So, to revisit, should we blame God for the supposedly ill human condition in which our evil-type tendencies come to bear? How about anxiety? Is that a fault? Is it that there needs to be a bit of the beast in humankind so that we can strive and explore? That is, if the beastly part were suddenly taken away, would qualities such as a zest for life diminish, as a side effect?

Well, one can blame God for His Creation if they think that God did it, but I wouldn’t claim all that for sure. If one wants a culprit, then how about evolution, since it fine-tuned us to the Earth, with early death as the chooser of what wasn’t going to procreate?

Well, yes, but the thanks and the glory is due also, in that via evolution we humans came to be, albeit we still in our rather infant stage at present. Neither blame nor fame can be claimed as owned.

Recall that the current state is ever changing, to move on towards higher and higher complexity, so look for higher being in the future, not in the past—which was a particularly wrong direction to look; turn around.

Quite possible, too, is another type of end to humans and to all life, for there have already been been many near-extinction events (floods, volcanoes, asteroids, heat, cold), with one, the Permian, even wiping out 95% of all species. “Why would God keep on doing this?” no longer seems appropriate to ask.

When the dinosaurs died out, this opened up a space in which mammals could come to flourish, so at least that happening greatly aided our becoming. Also, looking at marine isotope stage six, we can infer an ice age, along with a reduction of humans to only several thousand hardy souls, probably in South Africa, where seafood was abundant. This group survived, although there was no guarantee, and so we are likely all from them.

It appears that there is a balance in nature and in our human nature, in which the ‘good’ has to intermix with the ‘bad’. Water, for example, is indispensable, yet very destructive if in great abundance from storms and whatnot, or when scarce, and the same for fire, heat, and cold.

Within five billion years, our sun will burn out. If you fear that the likes of us will be seen no more, note that the 'Eternal Existent' has poured many bubbles like us, and will pour, for ever.
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JackDaydream
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by JackDaydream »

@PoeticUniverse

I have read some of what you have written but not all of it, because it is extremely long. On this site at the moment there are so many threads which are dealing with the same question of whether there is anything behind material reality, especially those depicted in religious accounts. The issue is such a perennial question. It is a major philosophy question, but at the same area it is a sensitive area for many people. The problem may be where any particular viewpoint, whether religious or atheist is enforced too strongly, because while being an issue for philosophy it is an area of thinking which each person needs to come to a personal conclusion. Some people come from backgrounds where ideas are enforced very strongly and in any philosophy discussions of the matter what may be most helpful is careful but analytic exploration of concepts which involve looking at assumptions behind the varying systems of belief. That goes beyond 'preaching' or any form of dogmatism of what one 'ought' to believe.
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Steve3007
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by Steve3007 »

PoeticUniverse, as Jack says the OP is very long. If you hadn't written it, but were trying to find something in it on which you could comment, what would you do? Read it all? Pick a part at random? Comment on the first line? Comment on the title? Write a comment that's not relevant to the topic?

If the text of the OP is intended to be a supporting argument for the assertion in the title (that the Book of Revelation is God nonsense), which bit supports it best, in your view?
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PoeticUniverse
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Steve3007 wrote: October 12th, 2021, 5:44 am If the text of the OP is intended to be a supporting argument for the assertion in the title (that the Book of Revelation is God nonsense), which bit supports it best, in your view?
Lets' take the OP to be the undoing of the Biblical 'God' idea at large making the Revelation to be dubious.
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

PoeticUniverse wrote: October 12th, 2021, 2:01 pm
Steve3007 wrote: October 12th, 2021, 5:44 am If the text of the OP is intended to be a supporting argument for the assertion in the title (that the Book of Revelation is God nonsense), which bit supports it best, in your view?
Lets' take the OP to be the undoing of the Biblical 'God' idea at large making the Revelation to be dubious.
Don't take this the wrong way, but most folks would probably interpret it as a 'rant'. For instance, if you want to make the 'logically impossible' case regarding the 'dubious' concept of God and its associated belief systems (and God's so-called existential role in human affairs), you must start with your own conscious existence, which exists, but operates from the same sense of logical impossibility (conscious, subconscious and unconscious mind all working together). Or, existentially, maybe start with the Wisdom Books/Ecclesiastes and go from there, that way you can capture the finitude of the human condition which seems to be more of what's bothering you. In other words, I think you've demonstrated that in essence, you are telling a story about the "blind leading the blind" (which of course is not necessarily a bad thing).

Gosh, PU, I want to be positive here and offer constructive criticism, but there is a lot of purging activity going on there. I think you are so used to doing poetry that you seem to default to a type of prose style exposition that translates into a kind of rant. Also, just an observation and more specifically, you seem to be ranting against religious Fundamentalism among other things, no? If so, have you provided a logical alternative to your concerns and/or frustrations?
PoeticUniverse
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by PoeticUniverse »

3017Metaphysician wrote: October 12th, 2021, 3:54 pm … a 'rant'. … what's bothering you. … purging activity going on … a kind of rant … you seem to be ranting … frustrations?

I want to be positive here and offer constructive criticism.
Strike 3; you only get one strike now and so you're out. Reason: Diversionary tactics yet again, as trying to dismiss. The points stand.
PoeticUniverse
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by PoeticUniverse »

JackDaydream wrote: October 12th, 2021, 5:30 am
I have read some of what you have written but not all of it, because it is extremely long.
This Book of Revelation below is longer, plus you might get scared if you read it, as when you were young, so beware:

https://austintorn.files.wordpress.com/ ... 50-dpi.pdf
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Steve3007
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by Steve3007 »

PoeticUniverse wrote:Lets' take the OP to be the undoing of the Biblical 'God' idea at large making the Revelation to be dubious.
OK. I guess I could take it as that if you tell me that's what it is. But it's hard to make judgements about it myself because, aside from anything else, it's simply too long and uniform. The "wall of text" style of post tends to be off-putting because it's hard to get a handhold, so to speak. That was the purpose of my questions in my previous post. I was trying to ask whether you're hoping that the creation of the topic was intended to form the basis of a discussion. If not, that's fine. But if you do want discussion (other than meta-discussion like this) my personal view is that, ideally, OP's should be short and should ask questions that other posters can use as a route into the topic.

If it feels impossible to do a topic justice in a short passage, that can be tricky. (For example, I did one about the twin slit experiment a while ago that was probably too long. I've written plenty of posts that were probably too long.). But then I guess the best approach is to make it clear what the core theme is and, as I said, give other posters questions to ponder.

Another difficulty is that this is a topic about religion and, in my view, there's really not much to argue about there. Either one is religious or one is not. It's like arguing about whether ice cream tastes nice.
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

PoeticUniverse wrote: October 12th, 2021, 5:59 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: October 12th, 2021, 3:54 pm … a 'rant'. … what's bothering you. … purging activity going on … a kind of rant … you seem to be ranting … frustrations?

I want to be positive here and offer constructive criticism.
Strike 3; you only get one strike now and so you're out. Reason: Diversionary tactics yet again, as trying to dismiss. The points stand.
P-AH-U! Or should I say, Poetic-rant-miester-Universe, just kidding...well, not really. Let's see, prove us wrong by deconstructing some of those rants.

Would that be helpful to the reader, you think? Remember Deconstructionism?

Support your exposition. You say your 'points' stand. Is your point relative to political activism against religious Fundamentalism?

First request.
PoeticUniverse
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Steve3007 wrote: October 13th, 2021, 5:15 am this is a topic about religion and, in my view, there's really not much to argue about there.
Yeah, so here's some entertainment; of course I wrote my own Bible:

https://austintorney.files.wordpress.c ... 50-dpi.pdf
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Steve3007
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by Steve3007 »

Of course! :D . I had a quick look. It's very colourful.
Even men with steel hearts love to see a dog on the pitch.
PoeticUniverse
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Re: The Book of Revelation and Other ‘God’ Nonsense

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Steve3007 wrote: October 13th, 2021, 2:45 pm Of course! :D . I had a quick look. It's very colourful.
Oh, and a horror story—The Book of Revelation:

https://austintorn.files.wordpress.com/ ... 50-dpi.pdf
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