Is Philosophy Dead in the World?

[Nick_A]

It is too early here to discuss Plato's forms if we cannot determine whose lives have value and why.

If you cannot define objective values for the forum then the thread has no basis.

Please stop evading.

Objective values exist in the universe and within Man as perennial truths. They re known by those having studied perennial philosophy or the values which always existed and continually needed as part of what sustains our universe.

Thanks for the generalities. So what actually are these values?

This may be worth trying to explain even though for Sy, she is too hung up on arguing about Trump to make a dent so to speak.

Where secularism is an expression of one level of reality or the earth, universalism concerns several levels of reality or conscious inclusion. In other words, the conscious quality of an animal is more inclusive than a vegetable. Universalism is a greater conscious quality than secularism. Secularism is within universalism. Plato's Ladder of Love is a good example of the increase of conscious quality beginning as subjective values and concluding as an objective value

https://www.thoughtco.com/platos-ladder-of-love-2670661

Diotima maps out the stages in this ascent in terms of what sort of beautiful thing the lover desires and is drawn toward.

1. A particular beautiful body. This is the starting point, when love, which by definition is a desire for something we don’t have, is first aroused by the sight of individual beauty.

2. All beautiful bodies. According to standard Platonic doctrine, all beautiful bodies share something in common, something the lover eventually comes to recognize. When he does recognize this, he moves beyond a passion for any particular body.


3. Beautiful souls. Next, the lover comes to realize that spiritual and moral beauty matters much more than physical beauty. So he will now yearn for the sort of interaction with noble characters that will help him become a better person.

4.Beautiful laws and institutions. These are created by good people (beautiful souls) and are the conditions which foster moral beauty.

5. The beauty of knowledge. The lover turns his attention to all kinds of knowledge, but particularly, in the end to philosophical understanding. (Although the reason for this turn isn’t stated, it is presumably because philosophical wisdom is what underpins good laws and institutions.)

6. Beauty itself – that is, the Form of the Beautiful. This is described as "an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades." It is the very essence of beauty, "subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness." And every particular beautiful thing is beautiful because of its connection to this Form. The lover who has ascended the ladder apprehends the Form of Beauty in a kind of vision or revelation, not through words or in the way that other sorts of more ordinary knowledge are known.

A beautiful body is a subjective value that changes while the form of beauty is an objective value which nether comes nor goes.

The outer man is drawn to external beauty revealed by the senses. The inner man including the soul of Man is drawn to the source of objective values. They oppose each other but do they have to? can they be reconciled?

[Sy Borg]

If you cannot define objective values for the forum then the thread has no basis.

Please stop evading.

Objective values exist in the universe and within Man as perennial truths. They re known by those having studied perennial philosophy or the values which always existed and continually needed as part of what sustains our universe.

Thanks for the generalities. So what actually are these values?

This may be worth trying to explain even though for Sy, she is too hung up on arguing about Trump to make a dent so to speak.

Where secularism is an expression of one level of reality or the earth, universalism concerns several levels of reality or conscious inclusion. In other words, the conscious quality of an animal is more inclusive than a vegetable. Universalism is a greater conscious quality than secularism. Secularism is within universalism. Plato's Ladder of Love is a good example of the increase of conscious quality beginning as subjective values and concluding as an objective value

So what you're saying is that consciousness is everywhere and that humans access more of it than other animals which access it more than plants and so forth. Maybe panpsychism is true. I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence for it, but it may still be the case.

Diotima maps out the stages in this ascent in terms of what sort of beautiful thing the lover desires and is drawn toward.

1. A particular beautiful body. This is the starting point, when love, which by definition is a desire for something we don’t have, is first aroused by the sight of individual beauty.

2. All beautiful bodies. According to standard Platonic doctrine, all beautiful bodies share something in common, something the lover eventually comes to recognize. When he does recognize this, he moves beyond a passion for any particular body.

3. Beautiful souls. Next, the lover comes to realize that spiritual and moral beauty matters much more than physical beauty. So he will now yearn for the sort of interaction with noble characters that will help him become a better person.

4.Beautiful laws and institutions. These are created by good people (beautiful souls) and are the conditions which foster moral beauty.

5. The beauty of knowledge. The lover turns his attention to all kinds of knowledge, but particularly, in the end to philosophical understanding. (Although the reason for this turn isn’t stated, it is presumably because philosophical wisdom is what underpins good laws and institutions.)

6. Beauty itself – that is, the Form of the Beautiful. This is described as "an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades." It is the very essence of beauty, "subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness." And every particular beautiful thing is beautiful because of its connection to this Form. The lover who has ascended the ladder apprehends the Form of Beauty in a kind of vision or revelation, not through words or in the way that other sorts of more ordinary knowledge are known.

A beautiful body is a subjective value that changes while the form of beauty is an objective value which nether comes nor goes.

The outer man is drawn to external beauty revealed by the senses. The inner man including the soul of Man is drawn to the source of objective values. They oppose each other but do they have to? can they be reconciled?

We deem things, people, ideas and so forth to be "beautiful", ie. desired because these things can be seen by most people to aid survival (noting that there's never agreement between all).

Further, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To some, a person may seem a beautiful soul, and to others he may seem like a vicious zealot.

What of art? There's some broad agreements in certain circles as to beauty but it's wildly subjective.

As for beautiful values. To you, laws that punish abortion are beautiful, but to many they exacerbate suffering. Then again, some like Mother Teresa see suffering as beautiful, albeit the suffering of other people.

[Nick_A]

Objective values exist in the universe and within Man as perennial truths. They re known by those having studied perennial philosophy or the values which always existed and continually needed as part of what sustains our universe.

Thanks for the generalities. So what actually are these values?

This may be worth trying to explain even though for Sy, she is too hung up on arguing about Trump to make a dent so to speak.

Where secularism is an expression of one level of reality or the earth, universalism concerns several levels of reality or conscious inclusion. In other words, the conscious quality of an animal is more inclusive than a vegetable. Universalism is a greater conscious quality than secularism. Secularism is within universalism. Plato's Ladder of Love is a good example of the increase of conscious quality beginning as subjective values and concluding as an objective value

So what you're saying is that consciousness is everywhere and that humans access more of it than other animals which access it more than plants and so forth. Maybe panpsychism is true. I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence for it, but it may still be the case.

Diotima maps out the stages in this ascent in terms of what sort of beautiful thing the lover desires and is drawn toward.

1. A particular beautiful body. This is the starting point, when love, which by definition is a desire for something we don’t have, is first aroused by the sight of individual beauty.

2. All beautiful bodies. According to standard Platonic doctrine, all beautiful bodies share something in common, something the lover eventually comes to recognize. When he does recognize this, he moves beyond a passion for any particular body.

3. Beautiful souls. Next, the lover comes to realize that spiritual and moral beauty matters much more than physical beauty. So he will now yearn for the sort of interaction with noble characters that will help him become a better person.

4.Beautiful laws and institutions. These are created by good people (beautiful souls) and are the conditions which foster moral beauty.

5. The beauty of knowledge. The lover turns his attention to all kinds of knowledge, but particularly, in the end to philosophical understanding. (Although the reason for this turn isn’t stated, it is presumably because philosophical wisdom is what underpins good laws and institutions.)

6. Beauty itself – that is, the Form of the Beautiful. This is described as "an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades." It is the very essence of beauty, "subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness." And every particular beautiful thing is beautiful because of its connection to this Form. The lover who has ascended the ladder apprehends the Form of Beauty in a kind of vision or revelation, not through words or in the way that other sorts of more ordinary knowledge are known.

A beautiful body is a subjective value that changes while the form of beauty is an objective value which nether comes nor goes.

The outer man is drawn to external beauty revealed by the senses. The inner man including the soul of Man is drawn to the source of objective values. They oppose each other but do they have to? can they be reconciled?

We deem things, people, ideas and so forth to be "beautiful", ie. desired because these things can be seen by most people to aid survival (noting that there's never agreement between all).

Further, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To some, a person may seem a beautiful soul, and to others he may seem like a vicious zealot.

What of art? There's some broad agreements in certain circles as to beauty but it's wildly subjective.

As for beautiful values. To you, laws that punish abortion are beautiful, but to many they exacerbate suffering. Then again, some like Mother Teresa see suffering as beautiful, albeit the suffering of other people.

Yes people all have subjective opinions on beauty under the sun. The question becomes if objective beauty as a form exists and if a person with evolved consciousness can experience it.

Diotima tells Socrates that if he ever reached the highest rung on the ladder and contemplated the Form of Beauty, he would never again be seduced by the physical attractions of beautiful youths. Nothing could make life more worth living than enjoying this sort of vision. Because the Form of Beauty is perfect, it will inspire perfect virtue in those who contemplate it.

Modern Man is more concerned with fragmentation and the opinions it inspires so there may be none left eventually to reach the highest rung.

Art is the same way. Most art is expression. A person sees what they want in it. Real art is skilled communication where the viewer experiences the higher emotion intentionally put into it. Art like beauty has levels of quality.

[Sy Borg]

Real art is skilled communication where the viewer experiences the higher emotion intentionally put into it. Art like beauty has levels of quality.

"Real" art. Like a "real Scotsman"?

Art is all real, but the skill, sincerity and eloquence of the art varies - obviously.