Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 7th, 2022, 6:46 am
Ecurb wrote: May 6th, 2022, 3:46 pmRegarding the nature vs. nurture question: it is unresolveable.
Sy Borg wrote: May 6th, 2022, 4:59 pm As a species, this question has long been resolved.
Here, I think I must disagree. The source of homosexuality cannot be brought down to nature or nurture. The two probably aren't distinct anyway. Nurture can affect nature, and nature, nurture. A practical example: we have learned that some lessons an individual learns, through nurture, can change their DNA (nature) in ways that would surprise someone who knows only the basics of Dawkinsian evolution. I can't remember the scientific terms for it all, but I believe it reflects our current understanding of inheritance, genetic and otherwise.
Show any peer reviewed experiment showing a person changing their DNA please.

I do not think there is any.

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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

Post by Atla »

Greatest I am wrote: January 18th, 2022, 5:58 pm Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.
My uneducated and politically incorrect guess is: none of the above. I think most cases of homosexuality are probably a developmental glitch that happens before birth, when the brain regions responsible for sexual orientation receive too much or too little amount of the necessary hormones, or something like this.

It's not a choice, it's not something to be opposed, but it's also not something to be promoted.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

Post by Sy Borg »

Atla wrote: May 7th, 2022, 3:02 pm
Greatest I am wrote: January 18th, 2022, 5:58 pm Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.
My uneducated and politically incorrect guess is: none of the above. I think most cases of homosexuality are probably a developmental glitch that happens before birth, when the brain regions responsible for sexual orientation receive too much or too little amount of the necessary hormones, or something like this.

It's not a choice, it's not something to be opposed, but it's also not something to be promoted.
I think it's multi-causal. Most are born with this particular mutation and a small minority would have had their sexuality distorted by adult intervention (both screwed-up ideas and actions) during childhood.

Hormonal disruption during a foetus's brain formation may produce feminine gay men and transpeople, but it does not explain the many hyper masculine gays, operating with much the same spirit as queer Spartan warriors, whose bonding in wartime went beyond hugs and well-wishes.

I think it's for the most part a natural variant. The fact is that nature has a tendency to create males who have access to multiple females, which leaves a percentage of males with no hope of competing for a mate. Yet these beta males still have a sex urge, and still want intimate companionship like most other humans. What to do, if they cannot compete for females? Same sex behaviour is common in species where dominant males commandeer all of the females.

Whatever, nature itself is nowhere near as wedded to "white bread" heterosexuality as many humans. https://medium.com/@benitachick/can-mar ... 8a659e1b39
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Sy Borg wrote: May 7th, 2022, 4:53 pm I think it's multi-causal. Most are born with this particular mutation and a small minority would have had their sexuality distorted by adult intervention (both screwed-up ideas and actions) during childhood.

Hormonal disruption during a foetus's brain formation may produce feminine gay men and transpeople, but it does not explain the many hyper masculine gays, operating with much the same spirit as queer Spartan warriors, whose bonding in wartime went beyond hugs and well-wishes.

I think it's for the most part a natural variant. The fact is that nature has a tendency to create males who have access to multiple females, which leaves a percentage of males with no hope of competing for a mate. Yet these beta males still have a sex urge, and still want intimate companionship like most other humans. What to do, if they cannot compete for females? Same sex behaviour is common in species where dominant males commandeer all of the females.

Whatever, nature itself is nowhere near as wedded to "white bread" heterosexuality as many humans. https://medium.com/@benitachick/can-mar ... 8a659e1b39
I think the hormonal issue is a lot more complicated than that. There are multiple hormonal impulses throughout gestation and there are multiple brain regions to be affected, they don't necessarily get affected equally. So that could explain the hyper masculine gays too.

I first considered this when I knew a lesbian and her sister was also a lesbian. Looks like they were simply born that way with no other homosexuals in the family. But their mother was an athlete in the Soviet Union and was presumably pumped full with hormones.

Obviously similar glitches could occur in some other species as well, while in some species homosexuality may be a natural variant. I don't think though that most straight human "beta" males turn gay even when they have no other options.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Atla wrote: May 7th, 2022, 5:15 pm
Sy Borg wrote: May 7th, 2022, 4:53 pm I think it's multi-causal. Most are born with this particular mutation and a small minority would have had their sexuality distorted by adult intervention (both screwed-up ideas and actions) during childhood.

Hormonal disruption during a foetus's brain formation may produce feminine gay men and transpeople, but it does not explain the many hyper masculine gays, operating with much the same spirit as queer Spartan warriors, whose bonding in wartime went beyond hugs and well-wishes.

I think it's for the most part a natural variant. The fact is that nature has a tendency to create males who have access to multiple females, which leaves a percentage of males with no hope of competing for a mate. Yet these beta males still have a sex urge, and still want intimate companionship like most other humans. What to do, if they cannot compete for females? Same sex behaviour is common in species where dominant males commandeer all of the females.

Whatever, nature itself is nowhere near as wedded to "white bread" heterosexuality as many humans. https://medium.com/@benitachick/can-mar ... 8a659e1b39
I think the hormonal issue is a lot more complicated than that. There are multiple hormonal impulses throughout gestation and there are multiple brain regions to be affected, they don't necessarily get affected equally. So that could explain the hyper masculine gays too.

I first considered this when I knew a lesbian and her sister was also a lesbian. Looks like they were simply born that way with no other homosexuals in the family. But their mother was an athlete in the Soviet Union and was presumably pumped full with hormones.

Obviously similar glitches could occur in some other species as well, while in some species homosexuality may be a natural variant. I don't think though that most straight human "beta" males turn gay even when they have no other options.
Generally, I agree. A mother with a male foetus who becomes especially stressed during the first trimester when the brain is forming will provide less testosterone during that period, so the brain is not shaped to be masculine. My guess is that, in the wild, extreme stress would be caused by food shortages and tribal warfare. There may be an advantage in times of famine to producing males who are less likely to breed, by reducing population pressures.

Also, naturally androgynous males are almost always presented with far more male interest and relational opportunities than from females. The situation is equivalent with androgynous women too, who tend to attract little interest from males. The persistent messaging that goes from childhood through to teens may also have an impact. In females, low testosterone levels would lead to low sex drive, which would also help when resources are relatively scarce.

In modern times, of course, such stress could just as easily be triggered by money problems, neuroses, relational problems or other "first world problems".
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Greatest I am wrote: May 7th, 2022, 12:31 pm Show any peer reviewed experiment showing a person changing their DNA please.

I do not think there is any.
Simon Gregory, an associate professor of medical genetics and codirector of the Duke Epigenetics and Epigenomics Program, wrote:While the sequence of DNA may not be affected by your environment, the way genes work—called gene expression—can. Think of DNA as a computer’s hardware; there may be several types of software programs that can regulate what the hardware does. Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene expression that don’t involve changing the underlying DNA—effectively, software changes that cause alterations in gene function.

...

These changes are heritable, meaning they can be passed on from parent cell to daughter cell within the body, and from parent to child.
Link to original article. I think this is roughly what I remember reading about. 👍
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Greatest I am wrote: May 7th, 2022, 12:31 pm Show any peer reviewed experiment showing a person changing their DNA please.

I do not think there is any.
Many people have mistakenly believed that the DNA with which we are born is the sole determinant for who we are and will become, but scientists have understood for decades that this genetic determinism is a flawed theory.
And here's another one. Link to original article. The field of interest seems to be called epigenetics.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Atla wrote: May 7th, 2022, 3:02 pm It's not a choice, it's not something to be opposed, but it's also not something to be promoted.
👍 I'd go farther, and say that it can't be promoted. You are homosexual (or whatever) or you aren't. No amount of promotion, or aversion 'therapy', will change that. It's like autism; there is no cure, nor is there a need for one. It's just one of many, many, differences that our gene pool exhibits. But it's always good to remember that the differences pale into insignificance compared with our commonalities. 👍
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Atla wrote: May 7th, 2022, 3:02 pm
Greatest I am wrote: January 18th, 2022, 5:58 pm Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.
My uneducated and politically incorrect guess is: none of the above. I think most cases of homosexuality are probably a developmental glitch that happens before birth, when the brain regions responsible for sexual orientation receive too much or too little amount of the necessary hormones, or something like this.

It's not a choice, it's not something to be opposed, but it's also not something to be promoted.
I agree that discrimination against gays is unjust.

If no choice, then gays follow nature, as I see it, as that would be all they can follow, so I think you are saying that being gays is caused by natural.

Hormones and what not are chemicals that our DNA tell our bodies to create.

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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 8th, 2022, 9:51 am
Greatest I am wrote: May 7th, 2022, 12:31 pm Show any peer reviewed experiment showing a person changing their DNA please.

I do not think there is any.
Simon Gregory, an associate professor of medical genetics and codirector of the Duke Epigenetics and Epigenomics Program, wrote:While the sequence of DNA may not be affected by your environment, the way genes work—called gene expression—can. Think of DNA as a computer’s hardware; there may be several types of software programs that can regulate what the hardware does. Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene expression that don’t involve changing the underlying DNA—effectively, software changes that cause alterations in gene function.

...

These changes are heritable, meaning they can be passed on from parent cell to daughter cell within the body, and from parent to child.
Thanks for this, but I do not think it does it for me.

He begins with " While the sequence of DNA may not be affected by your environment, " ---
--- which is a untrue.

My DNA is definitely changed or controlled by my environment.

Put me or you in peril, and see how fast we get our DNA to produces fight or flight chemicals.

Even here and now, If I were to insult you, think of the chemicals I would produce in you as compared to if I complimented your words.

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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Atla wrote: May 7th, 2022, 3:02 pm
Greatest I am wrote: January 18th, 2022, 5:58 pm Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.
My uneducated and politically incorrect guess is: none of the above. I think most cases of homosexuality are probably a developmental glitch that happens before birth, when the brain regions responsible for sexual orientation receive too much or too little amount of the necessary hormones, or something like this.

It's not a choice, it's not something to be opposed, but it's also not something to be promoted.
We are in agreement that it is not a choice. Therefore it CAN'T be "promoted", since folks are born that way and can't be converted by promotional efforts.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Nature is not perfect.
A mother's immune system has to fight with incoming sperm, and it can be the case that the second boy child has a higher instance of homosexuality because the first boy child initiates a negative immune response to maleness with the result that subsequent male foetuses are rejected, but homosexual ones have a better chance of survival.
This is why second boys have a higher chance of being gay than first borns. It is not know whether or not this process actively switches on gayness, or its simply about straight rejection, but the statistics hold good.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 8th, 2022, 9:55 am
Greatest I am wrote: May 7th, 2022, 12:31 pm Show any peer reviewed experiment showing a person changing their DNA please.

I do not think there is any.
Many people have mistakenly believed that the DNA with which we are born is the sole determinant for who we are and will become, but scientists have understood for decades that this genetic determinism is a flawed theory.
And here's another one. Link to original article. The field of interest seems to be called epigenetics.
This article is almost 100% incorrect.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

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Here's the dope on WHY.

Primary reason for choosing an abortion.

25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% Cannot afford a baby
14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or employment
7.9% Want no (more) children
3.3% Risk to fetal health
2.8% Risk to maternal health
2.1% Other

So which category do you think is not a valid reason?
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Greatest I am wrote: May 9th, 2022, 11:55 am My DNA is definitely changed or controlled by my environment.

Put me or you in peril, and see how fast we get our DNA to produces fight or flight chemicals.
Is it your DNA that is changed or controlled, or is it something rather more indirect?

Are fight-or-flight chemicals produced by DNA, or are they produced by genes, or their by-products, and not by our DNA itself?
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