Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
- Greatest I am
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Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.
If God, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?
God seem s to be the worst choice for Christians.
Regards
DL
- LuckyR
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
The old time christian view is that homosexuality is a choice, similar to committing crimes. And since it is a choice, it can be "unchosen", hence deprogramming classes. It is also convenient since choices can be sins, just like telling lies, idol worship and killing.Greatest I am wrote: ↑January 18th, 2022, 5:58 pm Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.
If God, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?
God seem s to be the worst choice for Christians.
Regards
DL
Thus the closest to your selections for western religions would be nurture. There is some nonconclusive research pointing towards nature (differences in brain activity etc). But probably a more accurate model is that sexual preference is a spectrum upon which everyone is somewhere on the spectrum. Thus even if individuals may have only had partners of a single gender, they may be bisexual in tendency for example. So much goes into relationships besides sexual attraction.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
I don't know what it matters if the differences in brain structure and functioning are more genetic or environmentally influenced or more likely whatever combination of both.
Also, it wouldn't matter if it were a choice. People should be able to choose whatever the f--- they want to consensually do.
But it seems as ridiculous to say that sexual orientation is a choice as it is to say that, for example, beliefs are a choice.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
The exact moment maybe different, but one thing stands out clearly; none of us made any kind of a choice. In fact I have not met any person who has claimed that they have a free choice about their sexual orientation.
I woke up one morning with an erection thinking about naked women. And it has basically not stopped in nearly 50 years. I do not think nurture as that power, especailly when it can b e such a bloody nuisence.
I have know a bisexual, but they also would agree since their own spectrum of attraction is also prescribed in as much as they did not like men to be too brutal, nor women to be too feminine, but within the range of their desire they were bound by unchosen propenisties.
As a heterosexual I feel that the very thought of sexual contact with a man, is utterly abhorent. I've had plenty of offers though the years from gay men, but although I could be perfectly friendly with them, the idea of sex just made me feel uncomfortable.
It is highly likey then, that for the most part nature determines the orientation. There is some evidence that oestrogenic compunds in our diet, largely from plastics my have a significant effect to feminise boys epigenetically, and through their early years.
Do we count this as nurture or nature?
What is most often on a person's mind when they pose this sort of question is whether or not there can be such a thing as a "Gay Cure", as if it was some sort of disease. I think they are fake.
Sexual orientation is determined before birth and there is very little you can do to change that.
How you apply your desire is another matter, as there is some power in us all to refrain; abstinence can hace serious mental health consequences.
As for God? If you believe in God then you have to accept that eveything including LGBTG... etc is all part of God's creation.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
Transformative Awakening - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09Q68K86X/
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
The gay rights movement promoted the idea that homosexual orientation is innate because they thought that it would aid the battle for equal rights. They may have been correct, although I agree that whether homosexuality is innate is irrelevant to whether it is immoral (or should be illegal). Obviously, most people do NOT think that if an orientation toward pedophelia is innate, sex with children is somehow justified.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 8:04 am
Also, it wouldn't matter if it were a choice. People should be able to choose whatever the f--- they want to consensually do.
But it seems as ridiculous to say that sexual orientation is a choice as it is to say that, for example, beliefs are a choice.
I do think that there is some level of "choice" in both sexual orientation and belief. Imagine a youth who has to make a choice whether to get his PhD. in physics or become a priest. Isn't it likely that his choice (which is clearly a choice) will influence his beliefs? Aren't our "beliefs" influenced by our social and intellectual milieu? One reason most people were Christian in the past is that every educated person whose opinion they respected told them Christ died for their sins. We believe that time is not a constant for the exact same reason. Therefore, if we can choose a social and cultural environment, we are choosing (to some extent) our beliefs.
The same is probably true of sexuality. Did as many people see themselves as "transgender" before it became acceptable to do so? If someone is gender-curious, mightn't he make a decision to "present" as male or female, and mightn't that decision influence both his behavior and his desires? The same may be true of homosexuality. The British Public School tradition of gay sex during one's youth, and heterosexuality later on is one example of "choice". In E.M. Forester's novel "Maurice" (Forester was the gay author of classics like "A Passage to India" and "A Room with a View"), the man who has an affair with the protaganist at Oxford later gets married and tells Maurice that he no longer has any interest in gay sex. Perhaps he's lying. Perhaps he has changed. Or perhaps his choice has actually influenced his desires.
When I was a child, I disliked cheese, especially rotten cheeses like Bleu. I made a choice to try them as I got older. Now I love them. Didn't my choice influence my tastes?
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
This sums it up well. Being gay is like being female, having red hair, or being tall. It isn't a matter of personal choice; it just is.CalebB wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 8:43 am I don't believe its a choice because we have a natural predisposition towards a certain orientation. Yes, we can choose what we want to do, but that choice is influenced by our instincts and urges. So out of the three options of nurture, nature, and God, I would say nature. Our DNA determines our brain structure and sexual orientation, whether you're straight or gay. This is not a matter of right or wrong. It just is.
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
I'd definitely agree that beliefs can be influenced. But that's different than choosing them. Choosing a belief would come down to, "Well, I can believe A or I can believe B . . . I guess I'll go with A."Ecurb wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 10:36 amThe gay rights movement promoted the idea that homosexual orientation is innate because they thought that it would aid the battle for equal rights. They may have been correct, although I agree that whether homosexuality is innate is irrelevant to whether it is immoral (or should be illegal). Obviously, most people do NOT think that if an orientation toward pedophelia is innate, sex with children is somehow justified.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 8:04 am
Also, it wouldn't matter if it were a choice. People should be able to choose whatever the f--- they want to consensually do.
But it seems as ridiculous to say that sexual orientation is a choice as it is to say that, for example, beliefs are a choice.
I do think that there is some level of "choice" in both sexual orientation and belief. Imagine a youth who has to make a choice whether to get his PhD. in physics or become a priest. Isn't it likely that his choice (which is clearly a choice) will influence his beliefs? Aren't our "beliefs" influenced by our social and intellectual milieu? One reason most people were Christian in the past is that every educated person whose opinion they respected told them Christ died for their sins. We believe that time is not a constant for the exact same reason. Therefore, if we can choose a social and cultural environment, we are choosing (to some extent) our beliefs.
The same is probably true of sexuality. Did as many people see themselves as "transgender" before it became acceptable to do so? If someone is gender-curious, mightn't he make a decision to "present" as male or female, and mightn't that decision influence both his behavior and his desires? The same may be true of homosexuality. The British Public School tradition of gay sex during one's youth, and heterosexuality later on is one example of "choice". In E.M. Forester's novel "Maurice" (Forester was the gay author of classics like "A Passage to India" and "A Room with a View"), the man who has an affair with the protaganist at Oxford later gets married and tells Maurice that he no longer has any interest in gay sex. Perhaps he's lying. Perhaps he has changed. Or perhaps his choice has actually influenced his desires.
When I was a child, I disliked cheese, especially rotten cheeses like Bleu. I made a choice to try them as I got older. Now I love them. Didn't my choice influence my tastes?
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
I was trying to compare "choosing beliefs" to "choosing sexual orientation". However, why can't you decide to believe A instead of B? The choice needn't be random: one looks at the evidence and decides what to believe. We all do it all the time. If we can't "choose" what to believe, how DO we decide between Creationism and Evolution (or any other set of competing theories)? Flip a coin?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 12:37 pm
I'd definitely agree that beliefs can be influenced. But that's different than choosing them. Choosing a belief would come down to, "Well, I can believe A or I can believe B . . . I guess I'll go with A."
To "choose" means to decide or pick between one or more possibilities. I understand your point: we believe what we believe. Nonetheless, we believe it because we've chosen to believe it, by deciding which of two or more possibilities is more evident.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
Did God create people to be rapists, murderers or paedophiles?Greatest I am wrote: ↑January 18th, 2022, 5:58 pm If God, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?
These are all choices each and everyone of us has. Why blame God?
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
Your question seems to be put together erroneously, especially in the context of you having placed in a section on the philosophy of religion. That is because the issue of whether being homosexualty is nature or nurture is one of understanding causation, genetics or socialisation. By adding the tag of 'God' on to it and putting it into the section on religion turns it into one which is an open invitation to posts of moral objection to gay issues on the basis of moral objection in relation to religion. This has happened in the post above, which appears to connect the choice of being gay alongside rapists, paedophiles and murderers. I am not even going to try and challenge that comment because everyone is entitled to their views.
From what I have read of your ideas don't think that you are intending the thread to be one which provokes hostility, and I am not even thinking that the person who made the comment was intending hostility, but simply expressing his view. Everyone is entitled to their views. Perhaps, I am overreacting or overthinking? Of course, I can choose to read the thread or not, but it does seem to me to definitely be in the wrong section of the forum as nature and nurture is a very different question to that of God and the philosophy of religion.
I am really not trying to be politically correct, but just see it as being a bit sensitive, because so many gay people struggle with issues of sexuality and guilt. But, obviously, I don't know how you plan to forward the discussion, but, if nothing else, I would like you to think about the way in which I see the problematic slant of framing of the issue in relation to 'God'. But, it could be that you are creating this thread to open up the critical issues arising between religious beliefs and sexuality, but it could become a difficult thread discussion.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
It is for those who are on the gay end of the spectrum. For those in the bisexual middle, having gay or straight sex can be a choice.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 11:04 amThis sums it up well. Being gay is like being female, having red hair, or being tall. It isn't a matter of personal choice; it just is.CalebB wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 8:43 am I don't believe its a choice because we have a natural predisposition towards a certain orientation. Yes, we can choose what we want to do, but that choice is influenced by our instincts and urges. So out of the three options of nurture, nature, and God, I would say nature. Our DNA determines our brain structure and sexual orientation, whether you're straight or gay. This is not a matter of right or wrong. It just is.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
Nevertheless, part of the issue may be about seeing who one has sex with as the only aspect. It gets complicated because some people have gay sex because that is more attainable than straight sex, especially in institutions like boarding school and the navy. Also, there may be a difference between how one sees oneself in terms of orientation and actually having sex. This is about feelings one has for members of one's own sex, which can be seen as the homoerotic attraction and not simply
about the act of sex, such as was emphasised in Greek civilisation in the ideal male body. This may have been a bit different from the way in which same sex love was seen and repressed within Christianity as taboo,. This meant that it was often hidden and forbidden, with gay people often joining the clergy and as a repressed and hidden shadow amidst the church.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
That's just what I'm talking about, though. Choosing on a whim, as if we're flipping a coin. When I go for a bike ride, here in metro New York City, say, where we have simple grid systems in many places, and I get to an intersection, I can choose to go left or right on a whim (and I actually do this all the time). But I can't choose to believe in creationism versus evolution on a whim. If the evidence is enough to strongly suggest one option over the other, I must believe what the evidence suggests to me. Part of that hinges on my dispositions--how I approach and make conclusions about different sorts of evidence. I can't think of a single belief I have that I have chosen to believe, where I could have just as well chosen the other option.Ecurb wrote: ↑January 19th, 2022, 1:24 pm I was trying to compare "choosing beliefs" to "choosing sexual orientation". However, why can't you decide to believe A instead of B? The choice needn't be random: one looks at the evidence and decides what to believe. We all do it all the time. If we can't "choose" what to believe, how DO we decide between Creationism and Evolution (or any other set of competing theories)? Flip a coin?
To use evolution versus creationism as an example, I believe that evolution was the case and creationism wasn't. I couldn't choose right now to believe that creationism was the case. If there were some sort of evidence that suggested that evolution wasn't the case and creationism was (Imagining that there could be some sort of evidence that I'd actually count as evidence of that), then I'd have to believe that creationism is the case rather than evolution (and assuming they'd be incompatible); it wouldn't be a choice that I'm making where in that situation I could just as well choose to continue believing in evolution.
The same thing is true for something as simple as, "I just ate a yogurt." Or for that matter "I just chose to turn right (or left) on my bike." I couldn't possibly simply choose to believe that I didn't. There could be evidence that could convince me that I didn't just eat a yogurt (or make the turn that I chose to make), but then that belief wouldn't be a choice. It would be compelled by the evidence, per how I parse the evidence, per how I reach conclusions, etc.
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Re: Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?
If I can choose to believe something, this shouldn't be the case. I should be able, for some belief, to simply say, "I choose to believe x," where immediately prior believed not-x, and it should simply be the case that from that point on, I believe x instead of not-x. Otherwise belief isn't a choice.
Again, this is the case with turning when I'm biking. I can choose to turn left, and turn left, and then say, "Nah, I'm going to choose to turn right instead," where I turn around and go the other way instead. That's what it has to be like for us to be able to make a choice about something.
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