Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

This unforgivable sin seems to be "speaking against" the Christian God. This sounds like a simple repetition of 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me'. It's just Christian propaganda, requiring that one must accept their God, and reject any and all concepts that might contradict it, or detract from it, in any way, shape or form. It's simple mind-control; ideological cruelty. Catholics are Very Good at that.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

The issue of heaven and hell may not be about speculation about life after death, but also about the experience of mental states in this one. In relation to Buddhism, part of my own preference and choice of reading source texts is because they are relevant in meditational states of awareness. This may be relevant to the heaven and hell as qualitative experience. It may be that it is a Western problem to see a split in thinking between speculation and certainty.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: February 14th, 2022, 8:26 am @ stevie

The issue of heaven and hell may not be about speculation about life after death, but also about the experience of mental states in this one. In relation to Buddhism, part of my own preference and choice of reading source texts is because they are relevant in meditational states of awareness. This may be relevant to the heaven and hell as qualitative experience.
"experience of mental states" ? Subjective experiences may be expressed using straightforward conventional language. I can't see what purpose other than emotional self-indulgence words like "heaven" and "hell" in this subjective context may have because these words are overloaded with culturally conditioned imaginative associations.
JackDaydream wrote: February 14th, 2022, 8:26 am ... It may be that it is a Western problem to see a split in thinking between speculation and certainty.
I can't make sense of "split in thinking between speculation and certainty", sorry.
Concepts of "western" [vs. "eastern"] don't make sense to me. Such distinctions nowadays usually are used by followers of esoteric/religious beliefs.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

stevie wrote: February 14th, 2022, 9:20 am I can't see what purpose other than emotional self-indulgence words like "heaven" and "hell" in this subjective context may have because these words are overloaded with culturally conditioned imaginative associations.
I think these words are intentionally used to carry and convey "culturally conditioned imaginative associations"? They are not "overloaded" for this purpose; this is their purpose, I think. Of course, it may not be a good, useful or worthwhile purpose....
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by stevie »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 14th, 2022, 9:36 am
stevie wrote: February 14th, 2022, 9:20 am I can't see what purpose other than emotional self-indulgence words like "heaven" and "hell" in this subjective context may have because these words are overloaded with culturally conditioned imaginative associations.
I think these words are intentionally used to carry and convey "culturally conditioned imaginative associations"? They are not "overloaded" for this purpose; this is their purpose, I think. Of course, it may not be a good, useful or worthwhile purpose....
Depends. As far as used intentionally by JackDaydream he hasn't overloaded them for this purpose, yes, because their being "overloaded with culturally conditioned imaginative associations" is the result of collective history. What I questioned was whether that is an appropriate way of speech if one is interested in expression of subjective experiences which is a questionable endeavour from the outset.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Gertie »

JackDaydream wrote: February 13th, 2022, 3:18 pm

You make some extremely important points. From my reading, Jesus's teachings were definitely related to a belief that the end of world was about to come. This was a challenge to those who developed the ideas. People have expected the world to end so many times and many are still expecting it, even though the context of that expectation is so variable.

There was such a blending of Platonic ideas which resulted in the belief in the immortality of the soul. On the other hand, some groups of people, such as The Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that there is no life after death until the end of the world when bodies resurrect. I have puzzled over all these ideas since I had a lecture on the philosophy of whether there was life after death. The tutor suggested that he believed that the soul may exist as disembodied until the physical resurrection. It conjures up images of souls hovering from graves.

When I read the Bible I am a bit confused what the resurrection body would be, whether it would be a physical or spiritual body. One aspect of this is that there is mention that people in heaven will be like angels. This may be connected to the belief that bodies were different prior to the fall of the ...
Yes it's difficult to work out Jesus's own beliefs, words and actions from ancient texts written in a different language based on oral accounts from decades earlier, nevermind the theological bias added in by the hellenist gospel writers, who didn't share or really understand Jesus's own Jewish theology. Most early converts weren't Jews, and Acts suggests the original apostles who knew Jesus were dubious about Paul's (who wasn't Jewish either and had come up with his own theology) interpretation of Jesus and his message, but agreed he could convert gentiles, which is how the gospel writers heard about Jesus in the churches Paul founded. It's hard to put ourselves into the mindset of of Jews of that time too, even ignoring the baggage we've acquired of contemporary Christian teachings . There are a few mentions of Sheol in the OT, but it doesn't seem like a major aspect of Jewish belief in Jesus's time or a fixed orthodoxy that had emerged.
The implications of Sheol within the texts are somewhat unclear; it can be interpreted as either a generic metaphor describing "the grave" into which all humans invariably descend, or, it may be interpreted as representing an actual state of afterlife within Israelite thought. While the Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE–70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone,[4] and is equated with Gehenna in the Talmud.[5] When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol. This is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

Biblical Criticism has come up with a dizzying variety of approaches to analysing the texts themselves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... bly%20said. But I think the current dominant academic theory is that Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic prophet

The way I see it we can get a feel of that tradition from reading the Scriptures Jesus himself was familiar with. Which broadly tell us about a chosen tribe whose god intervenes in their earthly travails, depending on how they conform to his wishes. Prophets emerge in times of trouble and the Jews were frequently on the sharp end of conflicts, ending up enslaved or in exile or occupied as in Jesus's time. Which was interpreted as a result of straying from Yahweh's wishes, and prophets could tell the people how to put things right. In Jesus's case this was a threat to the authorities, the Jewish leadership who had led the people astray, and the Romans who just wanted to maintain a compliant Jewish leadership so they could carry on collecting taxes with as little trouble as possible.

As for the nature of Jesus himself, if we look at the earliest gospel accredited to Mark, Jesus was a man given special status by their tribal god Yahweh through the Holy Spirit at John's baptism of him. That was Jesus's effective certification as a true prophet, along with the miracles Mark goes on to describe, tho the original text of Mark doesn't describe Jesus's resurrection. The other synoptic gospels added their own theological interpretations to Mark's account. By the last gospel, accredited to John, Jesus is part of the universal and eternal divine godhead.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Gertie

Even when I was at school I found most affinity with John's Gospel. It does fall more into the Gnostic tradition and I have read some but not all of these Gospels. I watched the film' 'Jesus of Nazareth' when I was a child which probably influenced my view a lot. Also, I attended catechism classes once a week from about the age of 4 because I was Catholic, but didn't go to a Catholic school until I was 12. In my early years at school I was aware that some children who were not brought up in religious families had a very sketchy picture. Generally, even though I ended up with some difficulties in coping with Catholic ideas, I still held on to the picture of Jesus as a being a great example to follow.

Nowadays, I do not see myself as 'religious' in the conventional sense, but have a strong interest in comparative religion and theosophy. In theosophy Jesus is seen as a master. One passage which is important in relation to him.as an 'illuminated being' is the one which speaks of the transfiguration. Also, I have read some ideas about the resurrection being about a very different kind of body to that of the physical. It is hard to know because it is emphasised that it was a body of flesh, but it does depend on how the state of consciousness of those who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus. It is possible that it involved stepping into a different dimension to the one of ordinary reality.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by GrayArea »

I personally take the viewpoint that early Christians intended the concepts of Heaven and Hell to be metaphors for two different choice of viewpoints regarding the nature of our existence, instead of a certain place that one ends up in.

Which is to say my viewpoint is that—even though I am Agnostic—Christianity has some amount of truth in it, just not in a literal sense that people usually take Christianity as.

We are extremely small beings with extremely short lifespans. While the Universe is infinite, we are finite both spatially and temporally. We are nothing but a speck of dust in the grand scheme of things. And just FYI, I am using the term "Universe" to refer to the full totality of existence itself, instead of the narrower definition of the Universe which began 13.8 billion years ago.

To summarize my view, I believe this is what Hell is a metaphor of. That is, how infinitely meaningless and insignificant our entire existence is, when compared to the infinitude of the Universe. That we will live our lives as basically nothing and will actually become nothing after we die. The ultimate existential punishment.

On the other hand, I believe Heaven is a metaphor for how meaningful our existence can be for people who see things in a different perspective. The different perspective here being, that one cannot really separate the Universe from the Self. The comparison between those two will become meaningless when we see them as one. When we give ourselves in to the Universe.

Therefore one stops seeing the self as something infinitely insignificant, but as something that is one with the infinite totality of the Universe.

When our conventional definition of the Self and the Universe are defined as one as sort of the "true" Self, there is no "true" death. Just merely the death of the conventional definition of the Self.

And when there is no distinction between "I" and "others", to love oneself is to love one another. To take this viewpoint is to automatically end up in Heaven. I believe that one can access "Heaven" any time one decides to view the world this way and embrace it through action.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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GrayArea wrote: June 2nd, 2022, 9:13 am I personally take the viewpoint that early Christians intended the concepts of Heaven and Hell to be metaphors for two different choice of viewpoints regarding the nature of our existence, instead of a certain place that one ends up in.
...and I personally take the viewpoint that God intended the concepts of Heaven and Hell to be metaphors for two different choice of viewpoints regarding the nature of our existence, instead of a certain place that one ends up in. My view is that the misunderstanding, on which we both agree, was down to those early Christians (and many/most of their successors).
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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In Gnostic Christianity, basically a naturalistic reality based religion, heaven and hell are states of mind.

We do not hold supernatural beliefs.

The general concept of reward and punishment, the carrot/stick ideology, has been recognized forever.

This is correct to do in our dualistic reality.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by JackDaydream »

Greatest I am wrote: June 8th, 2022, 11:37 am In Gnostic Christianity, basically a naturalistic reality based religion, heaven and hell are states of mind.

We do not hold supernatural beliefs.

The general concept of reward and punishment, the carrot/stick ideology, has been recognized forever.

This is correct to do in our dualistic reality.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
Your post is very interesting to read. I have read a certain amount of literature on Gnosticism, including 'The Gnostic Gospels' by Elaine Pagels. My interest in Gnosticism stemmed from reading the writings of Carl Jung. However, I think that I was always drawn to the symbolic explanations of the Bible rather tha literal and found the fourth Gospel more inspiring. Also, 'The Book of Revelation' makes a lot more sense if understood symbolically.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Greatest I am »

JackDaydream

Read them both.

I see you gained a good education and mind set.

I think Christianity would have remained the good religion it began as, if it had not gone stupidly into supernatural beliefs.

Now, the right wing is immoral homophobic and misogynous garbage.

Regards
DL
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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Greatest I am wrote: June 13th, 2022, 9:29 am JackDaydream

Read them both.

I see you gained a good education and mind set.

I think Christianity would have remained the good religion it began as, if it had not gone stupidly into supernatural beliefs.

Now, the right wing is immoral homophobic and misogynous garbage.

Regards
DL
The tangles of the supernatural can lead to so much confusion and I would admit to having struggled with such ideas. The homophobic and misogynist ideas can make life hard too.

I realised that I was bisexual around about the time I started school. I didn't realise the Catholic views on sexuality until I was about 16. But, what was funny was that one record which seemed to be one of the most popular in my church youth club was Soft Cell's 'Tainted Love', although I I am not sure if many people understood that it was about being gay. But being gay has been difficult for many, especially with the fear of damnation in hell, and, in the past, many became priests because they could not see another way of coping. There has probably been a shift in the thinking around sexuality but it can be an extremely problematic area psychologically
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Greatest I am »

I hear you buddy.

Have you noted that the ancients were less concerned with what people did with their junk than we are today?

Strange that the more educated we get, the more we fixate on garbage, like who is using their junk where.

IDK who is religions longest suffering people. Women or gays.

I am not really asking, as it is too close to call.

Regards
DL
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Greatest I am wrote: June 15th, 2022, 10:36 am Strange that the more educated we get, the more we fixate on garbage, like who is using their junk where.
Strange? The ancients were few, so their impact on the (whole) world was as minimal as that of any other species. Their rubbish didn't matter; there wasn't enough of it to matter. And it was, in all likelihood, a lot less toxic - harmful!! - than that which we discard regularly.

Today, when we have used up or poisoned most of the world, our rubbish takes on a different and greater significance, no?
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