Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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JackDaydream
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Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by JackDaydream »

I am raising this question because it seems to be an underlying idea of religious thought. I was raised in a Catholic background and grew up with a great fear of going to 'hell's. Having read many different perspectives, I am interested in that of Buddhism, but have been aware of the idea of heaven and hell being part of this. One image which seems to stand out is, 'the hell of hungry ghosts'.

In the various traditions of religion, the idea of heaven and hell stand out. The street preachers speak of hell as something to be feared. Psychedelic rock often speaks of the heaven within. The concepts of heaven and hell have been explored by Aldous Huxley in his discussion of hallucinogenics and states of mind, and William Blake spoke of the perception of heaven and hell, especially in his 'Marriage of Heaven and Hell'.

The area of philosophy debate appears to me to be about to what extent heaven and hell are social constructs or states of awareness. Also, to what extent are they are about life in an afterlife or in this life? So, I am asking about how the concepts of heaven and hell within religious thinking or other perspectives may be understood philosophically.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

I think perhaps heaven and hell are simple descriptions of consequences. If we live our lives well, we are rewarded (heaven). If we live our lives badly, we are punished (hell). I think perhaps these words actually mean reward and punishment? 🤔
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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@Pattern-chaser


It is interesting that you see the concepts in terms of reward and punishment, which is based on life in the world, rather than as metaphysics constructs. It may be that the way religious perspectives place them as metaphysical realities or states is a form of mystification. It conjures up so much fear.

The idea of reward and punishment is an underlying aspect of this, especially in the notion, 'As you reap, so will you sow'. This is connected to the idea of karma which is central to Eastern thought, but also to some forms of Christianity. It is a about cause and effects, but with a moral element too. I wonder how causality works and understanding of how our sense of having acted corresponds with understanding of how much of human experiences can be understood as 'reward or punishment'. The way in which the nature of reaping and sowing is also divided into consequences in this life and the hereafter. It could also be asked to what extent are the just rewarded and whether there is any real 'justice' in how people experience the consequences of moral actions and intents.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Ecurb »

In "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell', Blake sees them as flip sides of the same coin. ONe is not possible without the other. Perhaps "good" is not possible without "evil". The famous "Proverbs of Hell" are offered as ironic contradictions fo the Book of Proverbs:
The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Prudence is a rich, ugly old maid courted by Incapacity.

Prisons are built with stones of Law, brothels with bricks of Religion.
In "Paradise Lost", MIlton's Satan is a dynamic, sympathetic figure.

Dante, of course, sees Hell as more of a punishment. His Epic Poem explores the notion of sin (Odysseus, for example, is a sympathetic figure, but it in the circle of Hell reserved for liars and deceivers.)

IN "The Great Divorce" C.S. Lewis depicts a heaven and hell that are states of mind, rather than physical places.

ONe Christian interpretation is that hell is a separation from the divine.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: February 12th, 2022, 9:46 am It is interesting that you see the concepts in terms of reward and punishment, which is based on life in the world, rather than as metaphysics constructs.
Even if the two terms are metaphysical constructs, I still don't think they can be divorced from the concepts of reward and punishment?
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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@Ecurb

I probably side with Blake in seeing heaven and hell as two sides of the same coin. But, I do see it as being a big philosophy question to contemplate. One of my friends is in psychiatric hospital currently, experiencing psychosis related to fears of hell and damnation and it leads me to reflect on the way in which such ideas have been constructed. The relationship between religion and literature, such as the writings of Milton, Blake and Dante is important. The problem is that it can become so blurry, and the idea of the thread is of disentangling it all, even though it is a complex task connected to the development of the philosophy of religion historically.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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@Pattern-chaser

Your point of 'reward and punishment' is extremely important. I guess I just wonder to what extent reward and punishment are human interpretations of experience or literal. I see it as extremely complex and wonder to what extent there is any real basis for belief in 'divine retribution.'. This was one of the themes in 'The Book of Job' and runs as a theme throughout the Bible, with the wicked being thrown into 'the lake of fire' in 'The Book of Revelation'.

It is not exclusive to Western religious perspectives because in Eastern thought there is still a big emphasis on future lives and the idea of escaping the 'wheel of rebirth' through Nirvana. I often wonder if the reason why many reject religious perspectives is because they cannot accept the way in which there is an underlying belief in retributive justice.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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JackDaydream wrote: February 12th, 2022, 11:47 am I see it as extremely complex and wonder to what extent there is any real basis for belief in 'divine retribution.'
[...]
I often wonder if the reason why many reject religious perspectives is because they cannot accept the way in which there is an underlying belief in retributive justice.
Ah, now you begin to explore the ways in which 'heaven' and 'hell' are used. But I don't see the complexity. Reward and punishment are the meanings assigned to heaven and hell; some religions use them as you describe, but the (intended) meaning remains stable, I think. Perhaps the subject here is 'divine retribution'?
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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@Pattern-chaser

I am not sure that the topic should be 'divine retrubution' as such because it is also about states of mind and consciousness. Many people have experiences in this life which they regard as 'heaven' and 'hell.

When I was listening to an 80s music compilation recently, I was aware of the amount of references to the idea of heaven. The Psychedelic Furs singing, ' Heaven is the home of all hearts' seems to capture it as a state of bliss. In addition, the Led Zeppelin song from before that era seems to open up a lot of debate. I can remember being told by some evangelical Christians that the song was Satanic because if listened to backwards, it is possible to hear the words, 'Satan is God'. This made me so afraid and I love the song. If you think about it, any song which has the word dog in it will translate as God if listened to backwards.

Getting back to your point, the idea of retribution and justice is important, and the concepts of heaven and hell relate to this. However, rather than pinning it down to any particular way of understanding I raise the wider question of what is heaven and hell. One aspect which I find interesting is that Huxley's reflection on the topic raises it as being an experience beyond morality. Heaven and hell can be viewed as an aesthetic aspect of experience. Alternatively, it can be psychological. The wounded lover may be experiencing the fires of hell. So, although the idea of heaven and hell arises within religious thinking, often connected to reward and punishment, it has wider connotations about the nature of experience, suffering and ecstasy, in this life and, potentially, in any life after this one on earth.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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JackDaydream wrote: February 12th, 2022, 12:19 pm In addition, the Led Zeppelin song from before that era seems to open up a lot of debate. I can remember being told by some evangelical Christians that the song was Satanic because if listened to backwards, it is possible to hear the words, 'Satan is God'. This made me so afraid and I love the song.
Oh my! 😨 For a start, Satan is (a) God, just as Zeus and Jesus are. Second, evangelical Christians will hear blasphemy everywhere they look; it's an occupational hazard for them. There was supposed to be a locked leadout groove on the LP of "Abbey Road" that recited "Paul is dead"; I can't remember if one had to play it forward or backward. As far as I know, these are just urban myths; I wouldn't let them make you afraid. 👍


JackDaydream wrote: February 12th, 2022, 12:19 pm Getting back to your point, the idea of retribution and justice is important, and the concepts of heaven and hell relate to this. However, rather than pinning it down to any particular way of understanding I raise the wider question of what is heaven and hell. One aspect which I find interesting is that Huxley's reflection on the topic raises it as being an experience beyond morality. Heaven and hell can be viewed as an aesthetic aspect of experience. Alternatively, it can be psychological. The wounded lover may be experiencing the fires of hell. So, although the idea of heaven and hell arises within religious thinking, often connected to reward and punishment, it has wider connotations about the nature of experience, suffering and ecstasy, in this life and, potentially, in any life after this one on earth.
The possibility of life after physical, biological, death is another big topic. Just as is the promise of reward or punishment. There is a lot of baggage to unpack if you wish to get to the bottom of what the Christians taught you...?
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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@Pattern-chaser

Yes, my many complicated thread discussions show how my Catholic, and Christian, upbringing has affected my thinking and, perhaps, it will take me years of philosophy to deconstruct it all.

The concept of Satan is complex and related to the idea of Saturn, as opposition. There is also the idea of Lucifer, the Lord of Light, who is meant to have fallen and lead the angels to rebel. I am not sure how much of this is based on the Bible and how much of the mythology comes down to 'Paradise Lost'.

I know many people who are evangelical and do believe in a literal heaven and hell. I used to go to Christian Union when I was at university, that was until I discovered that some people there were so opposed to the books which I was reading, especially Carl Jung. It was at that point that I really did worry about hell, and even though I don't worry about it, in the literal sense, I know many who do. I also have my moments when I am not sure about it too.

The issue of heaven and hell is interrelated to the larger issue of life after death. This all depends on many other debates, such as how are mind and body connected and is there such a thing as the 'soul' and what does that mean. I realise that many on the site may regard the idea of life after death as ridiculous and even antideluvian. I am not sure if it exists as a literal reality. So far, only you and one other person has replied to my thread topic, so I don't know if the topic of the meaning of heaven and hell will be seen as an important topic or as of no relevance for philosophy discussion in the twentieth first century.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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JackDaydream wrote: February 12th, 2022, 1:14 pm I realise that many on the site may regard the idea of life after death as ridiculous and even antediluvian. I am not sure if it exists as a literal reality.
No-one is sure. 😉 But the possibility of life after biological death is still there. There is no evidence for it, as we all know, but there are many subjects for which this is the case. I rather like the idea of a continuation of existence without being tied to a physical body. Still, maybe it's all wishful thinking...?
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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@Pattern-chaser
I wonder about the idea of life without a physical body and what that would mean. Life as we know it is bound up with what it means to be a sentient being. The idea of 'mind' may present a philosophical conundrum, but rarely is it asked, what is the physical body? Human beings exist in both the physical and mental dimensions. Some thinkers may reduce it to the physical. Mind may be complex but what is matter exactly. I am not sure that quantum physics is able to reduce it all to matter as it may be about energies and impermanence in the physical world.

I have experienced out of body experiences and keep an open mind for possibilities beyond the physical. It is hard to know on what level to take such experiences at face value, and even the accounts of near death experiences. On the other hand, can the experience of waking reality, as the main criteria for thinking about reality be seen as the only possibility? Personally, I am not sure that it can, or I would not be even thinking about this topic. On the other hand, I am not sure that too literalist ideas from religion are helpful. It is an area of speculation, but is central to understanding of what human beings are in the larger metaphysical picture, whether from a religious or secular philosophical position.
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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JackDaydream wrote: February 12th, 2022, 2:04 pm I wonder about the idea of life without a physical body and what that would mean. Life as we know it is bound up with what it means to be a sentient being. The idea of 'mind' may present a philosophical conundrum, but rarely is it asked, what is the physical body? Human beings exist in both the physical and mental dimensions. Some thinkers may reduce it to the physical.
I go with the 'embodied mind' concept, myself. Or 'en-minded body'; it's the same thing. So life after death would be a significant change....
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Re: Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

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JackDaydream wrote: February 12th, 2022, 8:58 am Having read many different perspectives, I am interested in that of Buddhism, but have been aware of the idea of heaven and hell being part of this. One image which seems to stand out is, 'the hell of hungry ghosts'.
Buddhist cosmology
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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