Heaven and Hell: What is the meaning of such concepts?

[JackDaydream]

@stevie

I don't know why you have linked the Wikipedia entry on Buddhist cosmology. It has no reference to the idea of heaven and hell at all, and it even has a disclaimer at the top which suggests that it can be improved. I have many books on Buddhism, but it is complex. Apart from it coming outside of Western philosophy there are many divergences in ideas, especially with regard to metaphysics. The point is not to oversimplify because that is like philosophical prostitution, in which ideas can be treated like marketable forms, rather than understood in any depth.

[JackDaydream]

@stevie

I looked at the link again and the Wikipedia entry does have some reference to the idea of hells. I am not saying that Wikipedia is not a useful starting point. I am sure that you think that it is relevant, and it is sometimes useful to get an overview. However, I guess that I am looking for more depth, even though Buddhism is not the perspective which I grew up with and I am viewing it in the context of comparative religion.

[JackDaydream]

@Pattern-chaser

The idea of disembodied existence does raise many quandaries. However, it is an underlying philosophy problem. It may be why Christianity often incorporates the idea of a physical resurrection and Eastern thinkers often come up with the idea of reincarnation. A friend who of mine who is a Hindu views the idea of heaven and hell as being in between births. This is consistent with the thinking of 'The Tibetan Book of the Dead'. However, the whole question of life after death raises the question of what form it would take and what is a body, physical or spiritual? This also raises the question of whether heaven and hell exist literally and what they symbolise exactly.

[Ecurb]

We know from another art form that for Fred and Ginger, heaven is dancing cheek to cheek.

Hell is not mentioned in the movie.

[Gertie]

I am raising this question because it seems to be an underlying idea of religious thought. I was raised in a Catholic background and grew up with a great fear of going to 'hell's. Having read many different perspectives, I am interested in that of Buddhism, but have been aware of the idea of heaven and hell being part of this. One image which seems to stand out is, 'the hell of hungry ghosts'.

In the various traditions of religion, the idea of heaven and hell stand out. The street preachers speak of hell as something to be feared. Psychedelic rock often speaks of the heaven within. The concepts of heaven and hell have been explored by Aldous Huxley in his discussion of hallucinogenics and states of mind, and William Blake spoke of the perception of heaven and hell, especially in his 'Marriage of Heaven and Hell'.

The area of philosophy debate appears to me to be about to what extent heaven and hell are social constructs or states of awareness. Also, to what extent are they are about life in an afterlife or in this life? So, I am asking about how the concepts of heaven and hell within religious thinking or other perspectives may be understood philosophically.

I don't know much about other religions, but regarding Christianity I go with the theory that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet immersed in Jewish theology, which didn't seem to have a set notion of body-soul dualism. Jesus's message, from what we can tell, seems to be that the Jewish God Yahweh is imminently about to intervene in this world to create a paradisial kingdom on earth for those who have done Yahweh's will, as described by his messenger Jesus. Those who are judged worthy, both the currently living and the dead who will be physically resurrected to life, will gain everlasting life in God's kingdom. And the unworthy will suffer everlasting death. Jesus seemed to see his role as to urgently let people know this was imminent, and what people had to do to gain everlasting life in God's kingdom on earth. Otherwise your body is thrown into the eternal fiery pit and you're dead forever.

Now the gospel writers knew that the promised apocalyptic intervention to install Yahweh's kingdom on earth hadn't happened, and in fact Jesus had himself died. Which meant a reinterpretation of Jesus's message was required, and this became mingled in with the above. It seems likely Platonic body-soul dualism began to creep in through the world views of the hellenistic gentile converts who wrote the gospels, firming up over time. And if you believe in an eternal soul, it will need somewhere to go when you're judged. Heaven or Hell. The transformational intervention is no longer located in this world with those ajudged 'good sheep' living, embodied people in an eternal earthly Paradise, and the 'bad goats' eternally dead.

Alongside that the nature of Jesus himself had to be re-evaluated, which lasted centuries. And the gospels were written during the early part of this process of re-evaluation too, with varying theological emphases, but already venturing beyond Jesus's likely own Jewish world view.

So we've ended up with something of a fuzzy synthesis of Jewish apocalypticism and Greek Platonism, which has been built on and re-conceptualised ever since. But our need for a sense of Justice at the end of the day, through the unfair vicissitudes of earthly life and our own good/bad choices (Justification by Good Works as advocated by Jesus), has a central role. Albeit it in an uneasy relationship with the other notion more closely associated with Paul's interpretation of Jesus's nature and death, of Justification by Faith in Jesus and his substitutionary sacrificial atonement for our sins.

Most people now I think carry a lot of vague and sometimes contradictory versions of the above around in our heads.

[Pattern-chaser]

A friend who of mine who is a Hindu views the idea of heaven and hell as being in between births. This is consistent with the thinking of 'The Tibetan Book of the Dead'. However, the whole question of life after death raises the question of what form it would take and what is a body, physical or spiritual? This also raises the question of whether heaven and hell exist literally and what they symbolise exactly.

If it should turn out that reward/punishment follows biological death, then we surely should consider the possible literality (?) of heaven and hell. I tend to shy away from this, as I can't see who/what would offer such rewards/punishments. Who/what would have the time and the inclination to judge a humans for their lifelong conduct? There are an awful lot of humans, and each judgement would take an enormous amount of work. I find it difficult to think that even God might consider this a worthwhile way of dissipating Her time...?

[JackDaydream]

@Gertie

You make some extremely important points. From my reading, Jesus's teachings were definitely related to a belief that the end of world was about to come. This was a challenge to those who developed the ideas. People have expected the world to end so many times and many are still expecting it, even though the context of that expectation is so variable.

There was such a blending of Platonic ideas which resulted in the belief in the immortality of the soul. On the other hand, some groups of people, such as The Jehovah's Witnesses, believe that there is no life after death until the end of the world when bodies resurrect. I have puzzled over all these ideas since I had a lecture on the philosophy of whether there was life after death. The tutor suggested that he believed that the soul may exist as disembodied until the physical resurrection. It conjures up images of souls hovering from graves.

When I read the Bible I am a bit confused what the resurrection body would be, whether it would be a physical or spiritual body. One aspect of this is that there is mention that people in heaven will be like angels. This may be connected to the belief that bodies were different prior to the fall of the angels and humanity.

[JackDaydream]

@Pattern-chaser

Most of the time I don't believe in a literal heaven or hell. I am not sure to what extent I believe in a literal life after death, especially as reward or punishment. I'd like to believe in reincarnation but I am sure of that either. I have times when I wonder about literal heaven and hell, especially as I have one friend who speaks about fear of hell frequently, meaning that I am drawn into thinking about it.

In the past, I used to worry about the idea of hell so much, especially when I went to an evangelical church for a few months. It did seem odd that God would wish to punish people forever, although Jahweh in the Old Testament conveys the idea of vengeance and a jealous God in contrast to the idea of the forgiveness of Jesus.

The times when I do become fearful of the punishment of hell are often when I go into old churches. The atmosphere seems to conjure up fear in me. Also, my fear goes back to reading the passage in the Gospels which is about the unforgivable sin. It is meant to be blasphemous against the Holy Spirit and it is hard to know what that is. I read the passage when I was 13 years old and worried about it for months. I never told my parents but did tell friends at school. The Religious Studies teacher got to hear about my worry. He called me into office. He helped me understand the passage a little but I felt that he thought that I must have committed some major 'sin' and didn't seem to understand that the passage had just troubled me so much. Several years later, I discovered that many people had struggled with the passage about the unforgivable sin, including both Carl Jung and Kierkergaard.

But, my time of worrying at 13, to the point that it was affecting my concentration on my schoolwork, have left me with a psychological scar and, even now, I find it hard to read the Bible without a feeling of underlying fear and, I do find it difficult if I go to church because the fear of hell seems to be like a shadow in a corner.

[Ecurb]

Goethe's Faust asks Mephisopholes, "...and so who are you after all?"

"I am part of the power which forever wills evil and forever works good."

That should explain it!

[Ecurb]

By the way, this quote is a prologue at the start of "The Master and Margarita", Mikhail Bulgakov's brilliant novel, considered by many to be the greatest of all Soviet era novels. "M & M" was written in the 1930s, at the height of the Stalinist purges. It wasn't published for 30 years, and the author died of kidney failure in 1940. Smopng other things, it is a funny and biting lampoon of Stalinism.

The novel features "Dr. Woland", who turns out to be Satan. He's not a bad guy, but he likes exposing the evil in others. The novel adumbrates "Magical Realism", but with a Russian obsession with "big" issues of religion and philosophy. However, it's very funny, and moving. Highly recomended.

[Ecurb]

"Smopng" is, amazingly, "Among",

[Consul]

Heaven and Hell in Christian Thought: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/

[stevie]

@ stevie

I looked at the link again and the Wikipedia entry does have some reference to the idea of hells. I am not saying that Wikipedia is not a useful starting point. I am sure that you think that it is relevant, and it is sometimes useful to get an overview. However, I guess that I am looking for more depth, even though Buddhism is not the perspective which I grew up with and I am viewing it in the context of comparative religion.

You mentioned "buddhism" and so I referred to buddhist cosmology because due to the speculative buddhist religious belief of "rebirth" the concepts of "heaven" and "hell" are necessarily embedded in their cosmology. I don't know what "more depth" might be in the context of speculative beliefs. Maybe you are referring to descriptions of how 'living in heaven' or 'living in hell' are described? I guess that such descriptions may also be found in buddhist texts. But as you may perhaps guess the topic actually isn't worth a conversation from my perspective.

[Pattern-chaser]

Also, my fear goes back to reading the passage in the Gospels which is about the unforgivable sin. It is meant to be blasphemous against the Holy Spirit and it is hard to know what that is. I read the passage when I was 13 years old and worried about it for months. I never told my parents but did tell friends at school. The Religious Studies teacher got to hear about my worry. He called me into office. He helped me understand the passage a little but I felt that he thought that I must have committed some major 'sin' and didn't seem to understand that the passage had just troubled me so much. Several years later, I discovered that many people had struggled with the passage about the unforgivable sin, including both Carl Jung and Kierkergaard.

This is terrible, and those who raised you in their rather unpleasant belief system have a lot to answer for. As I've already said, I was raised by Roman Catholics, but I never came across this "unforgiveable sin". It sounds like the 'unforgiveable curses' from Harry Potter, but Potter is fiction, and what happened to you is not...

[JackDaydream]

@Pattern-chaser

It was not anyone in my family, education or church that taught me about the idea of the unforgivable. I just happened to read the Bible during the Bible during the summer holiday and found it(Matthew 12: 31-32). It is also mentioned in the other Gospels. I couldn't sleep the night before starting a new school because I was excited and began really worrying about the idea and what it meant. I began to think I may have committed it and I went off to my first day at the new school feeling terrible and I never spoke to anyone about it for months. When I mentioned it to friends at school they didn't know what I was talking about.

Even as an adult, I find that if I mention the unforgivable sin many Catholics and Christians are not aware of the passage or the meaning. I do wonder if the inclusion of the the idea of the unpardonable sin is bound up with the creation of fear of hell and damnation.