What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
EricPH
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Post by EricPH »

JackDaydream wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:53 pm Kindness is an aspect of life which may become lost. It does seem that spiritual traditions, including Christianity, emphasise its importance.
I am sure science must acknowledge kindness as a positive quality; and more kindness would make this world a better place.
Part of the problem with the idea of 'Love your neighbour as yourself' is the essential aspect of loving oneself as a basis for love of others.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu called this a selfish compassion. He came to understand that when you are kind to others, then you get a feel good satisfaction yourself. You probably help yourself as least as much as you help the others; when you perform an act of kindness.
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Angelo Cannata
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Post by Angelo Cannata »

JackDaydream wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:45 pm I puzzle over what 'God' implies because this 'reality' beyond human thinking cannot be reduced to the anthropomorphic imagination. I see the various spiritual traditions, whether they suggest a God, like Christianity, or some reality which is not an actual deity, like Buddhism as pointing to some underlying aspect of human consciousness of importance.
An essential difference between philosophy and spirituality is that spirituality is mainly meant to be experience, while philosophy is meant to be understanding. This criterion has been crucial in my choice about God. I deal with the essential problem of theodicy not only by reasoning, but especially by considering my human experience; in this context, even reasoning is considered, to a large extent, in its being a human experience, rather than just a system to understand things. This is what is always ignored by all the answers to the problem of theodicy: they fail to consider the human experience as such, they consider it just as a concept. If we take seriously the human experience, we realize that any logical answer to the problem of theodicy, in order to be valid, must be an acceptable harmony of reasoning and experience, not only reasoning. It doesn’t matter if it works from the logical point of view, if it fails in giving a solid human experience harmonized with that reasoning. In other words, if anybody tells me any answer, my counter-answer is “I don’t care your reasoning; the fact is that I am suffering: I want to be met in my suffering, not just in my intellect”. This is the challenge that spirituality is proud to meet: meeting the whole person, which means including a whole relationship that includes charity, friendship, action, involvement. This is why I decided not to believe in God: because all answers to the problem of theodicy don’t make a valid whole human experience out of a reasoning. They just fly over my head, without touching my body, my emotions, my heart, my life. We could say that spirituality, in its most general meaning, is philosophy that decides to accept the challenge of meeting the whole person.

Once we get on board this mentality, we can realize that the problem of the existence or non existence of God needs to be re-addressed in a different way: what is important is the experience, not any ultimate rational answer. This means that I don’t care so much if I am an atheist and my friend is a Muslim, or a Christian, for example: what is important is not that my friend believes in something I don’t believe in; what is important is that they live an experience that is strong and intense to them. This is what I am interested in. As a consequence, I have no problem, as an atheist, even to go to their celebration, their cult, and even invoke and pray their God: I invoke your God, even if I don’t believe he exists, because what is important to me is visiting your experience, sharing it, as intimately as possible. Obviously, I will never be able to be intimately involved like a believer: I am just a visitor, but this is already a lot: I want visit experiences from their inside as much as possible. This gives nourishment to my inner life.

This way, even between me and myself, it doesn’t matter so much how to conceive God, or the world, or anything else: what matters is what kind of pregnant experience is able to come out from visiting that specific philosophy, that religion, or whatever experience.
JackDaydream wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:45 pm Some, especially the materialist philosophers may dismiss inner reality and the focus upon the inner world. As far as I can see, even if this inner consciousness is mortal it is at the basis of human life and human values.
On one side I appreciate the criticism coming out from materialistic or similar positions: they have a revealing power, in making us aware of flaws, contradictions, hypocrisies. But, at the same time, it happens too frequently that criticism forgets to criticize itself. I think the strongest criticism to criticism must be, and is, something that is not criticism, cannot be attacked by criticism and, at the same time, is able to pose a challenge to criticism. This something is experience. Experience is not criticism. Experience cannot be attacked by criticism: you cannot criticize somebody who is just expressing their pain or their emotions: you can criticize concepts, ideas, but it is impossible to criticize experiences. On the contrary, experience is able, from its side, to challenge criticism by saying to criticism “You are ignoring experience, you are ignoring humanity, so, after all, you are ignoring me, all humans, and yourself as well. You are ignoring too many things in order to be the ultimate word”.
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JackDaydream
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Post by JackDaydream »

EricPH wrote: May 16th, 2022, 12:12 pm
JackDaydream wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:53 pm Kindness is an aspect of life which may become lost. It does seem that spiritual traditions, including Christianity, emphasise its importance.
I am sure science must acknowledge kindness as a positive quality; and more kindness would make this world a better place.
Part of the problem with the idea of 'Love your neighbour as yourself' is the essential aspect of loving oneself as a basis for love of others.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu called this a selfish compassion. He came to understand that when you are kind to others, then you get a feel good satisfaction yourself. You probably help yourself as least as much as you help the others; when you perform an act of kindness.
One opposition to the idea of kindness was that of Nietzsche, who regarded it as 'slave morality'. However, it may be that receiving kindness makes a person aware of its values. Certainly, I am aware of the way in which acts of kindness have helped me in times of crisis and how I appreciate it and wish to extend the experience of kindness to others on that basis.
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JackDaydream
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Post by JackDaydream »

Angelo Cannata wrote: May 16th, 2022, 12:32 pm
JackDaydream wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:45 pm I puzzle over what 'God' implies because this 'reality' beyond human thinking cannot be reduced to the anthropomorphic imagination. I see the various spiritual traditions, whether they suggest a God, like Christianity, or some reality which is not an actual deity, like Buddhism as pointing to some underlying aspect of human consciousness of importance.
An essential difference between philosophy and spirituality is that spirituality is mainly meant to be experience, while philosophy is meant to be understanding. This criterion has been crucial in my choice about God. I deal with the essential problem of theodicy not only by reasoning, but especially by considering my human experience; in this context, even reasoning is considered, to a large extent, in its being a human experience, rather than just a system to understand things. This is what is always ignored by all the answers to the problem of theodicy: they fail to consider the human experience as such, they consider it just as a concept. If we take seriously the human experience, we realize that any logical answer to the problem of theodicy, in order to be valid, must be an acceptable harmony of reasoning and experience, not only reasoning. It doesn’t matter if it works from the logical point of view, if it fails in giving a solid human experience harmonized with that reasoning. In other words, if anybody tells me any answer, my counter-answer is “I don’t care your reasoning; the fact is that I am suffering: I want to be met in my suffering, not just in my intellect”. This is the challenge that spirituality is proud to meet: meeting the whole person, which means including a whole relationship that includes charity, friendship, action, involvement. This is why I decided not to believe in God: because all answers to the problem of theodicy don’t make a valid whole human experience out of a reasoning. They just fly over my head, without touching my body, my emotions, my heart, my life. We could say that spirituality, in its most general meaning, is philosophy that decides to accept the challenge of meeting the whole person.

Once we get on board this mentality, we can realize that the problem of the existence or non existence of God needs to be re-addressed in a different way: what is important is the experience, not any ultimate rational answer. This means that I don’t care so much if I am an atheist and my friend is a Muslim, or a Christian, for example: what is important is not that my friend believes in something I don’t believe in; what is important is that they live an experience that is strong and intense to them. This is what I am interested in. As a consequence, I have no problem, as an atheist, even to go to their celebration, their cult, and even invoke and pray their God: I invoke your God, even if I don’t believe he exists, because what is important to me is visiting your experience, sharing it, as intimately as possible. Obviously, I will never be able to be intimately involved like a believer: I am just a visitor, but this is already a lot: I want visit experiences from their inside as much as possible. This gives nourishment to my inner life.

This way, even between me and myself, it doesn’t matter so much how to conceive God, or the world, or anything else: what matters is what kind of pregnant experience is able to come out from visiting that specific philosophy, that religion, or whatever experience.
JackDaydream wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:45 pm Some, especially the materialist philosophers may dismiss inner reality and the focus upon the inner world. As far as I can see, even if this inner consciousness is mortal it is at the basis of human life and human values.
On one side I appreciate the criticism coming out from materialistic or similar positions: they have a revealing power, in making us aware of flaws, contradictions, hypocrisies. But, at the same time, it happens too frequently that criticism forgets to criticize itself. I think the strongest criticism to criticism must be, and is, something that is not criticism, cannot be attacked by criticism and, at the same time, is able to pose a challenge to criticism. This something is experience. Experience is not criticism. Experience cannot be attacked by criticism: you cannot criticize somebody who is just expressing their pain or their emotions: you can criticize concepts, ideas, but it is impossible to criticize experiences. On the contrary, experience is able, from its side, to challenge criticism by saying to criticism “You are ignoring experience, you are ignoring humanity, so, after all, you are ignoring me, all humans, and yourself as well. You are ignoring too many things in order to be the ultimate word”.
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JackDaydream
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Post by JackDaydream »

JackDaydream wrote: May 16th, 2022, 6:18 pm
Angelo Cannata wrote: May 16th, 2022, 12:32 pm
JackDaydream wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:45 pm I puzzle over what 'God' implies because this 'reality' beyond human thinking cannot be reduced to the anthropomorphic imagination. I see the various spiritual traditions, whether they suggest a God, like Christianity, or some reality which is not an actual deity, like Buddhism as pointing to some underlying aspect of human consciousness of importance.
An essential difference between philosophy and spirituality is that spirituality is mainly meant to be experience, while philosophy is meant to be understanding. This criterion has been crucial in my choice about God. I deal with the essential problem of theodicy not only by reasoning, but especially by considering my human experience; in this context, even reasoning is considered, to a large extent, in its being a human experience, rather than just a system to understand things. This is what is always ignored by all the answers to the problem of theodicy: they fail to consider the human experience as such, they consider it just as a concept. If we take seriously the human experience, we realize that any logical answer to the problem of theodicy, in order to be valid, must be an acceptable harmony of reasoning and experience, not only reasoning. It doesn’t matter if it works from the logical point of view, if it fails in giving a solid human experience harmonized with that reasoning. In other words, if anybody tells me any answer, my counter-answer is “I don’t care your reasoning; the fact is that I am suffering: I want to be met in my suffering, not just in my intellect”. This is the challenge that spirituality is proud to meet: meeting the whole person, which means including a whole relationship that includes charity, friendship, action, involvement. This is why I decided not to believe in God: because all answers to the problem of theodicy don’t make a valid whole human experience out of a reasoning. They just fly over my head, without touching my body, my emotions, my heart, my life. We could say that spirituality, in its most general meaning, is philosophy that decides to accept the challenge of meeting the whole person.

Once we get on board this mentality, we can realize that the problem of the existence or non existence of God needs to be re-addressed in a different way: what is important is the experience, not any ultimate rational answer. This means that I don’t care so much if I am an atheist and my friend is a Muslim, or a Christian, for example: what is important is not that my friend believes in something I don’t believe in; what is important is that they live an experience that is strong and intense to them. This is what I am interested in. As a consequence, I have no problem, as an atheist, even to go to their celebration, their cult, and even invoke and pray their God: I invoke your God, even if I don’t believe he exists, because what is important to me is visiting your experience, sharing it, as intimately as possible. Obviously, I will never be able to be intimately involved like a believer: I am just a visitor, but this is already a lot: I want visit experiences from their inside as much as possible. This gives nourishment to my inner life.

This way, even between me and myself, it doesn’t matter so much how to conceive God, or the world, or anything else: what matters is what kind of pregnant experience is able to come out from visiting that specific philosophy, that religion, or whatever experience.
JackDaydream wrote: May 15th, 2022, 3:45 pm Some, especially the materialist philosophers may dismiss inner reality and the focus upon the inner world. As far as I can see, even if this inner consciousness is mortal it is at the basis of human life and human values.
On one side I appreciate the criticism coming out from materialistic or similar positions: they have a revealing power, in making us aware of flaws, contradictions, hypocrisies. But, at the same time, it happens too frequently that criticism forgets to criticize itself. I think the strongest criticism to criticism must be, and is, something that is not criticism, cannot be attacked by criticism and, at the same time, is able to pose a challenge to criticism. This something is experience. Experience is not criticism. Experience cannot be attacked by criticism: you cannot criticize somebody who is just expressing their pain or their emotions: you can criticize concepts, ideas, but it is impossible to criticize experiences. On the contrary, experience is able, from its side, to challenge criticism by saying to criticism “You are ignoring experience, you are ignoring humanity, so, after all, you are ignoring me, all humans, and yourself as well. You are ignoring too many things in order to be the ultimate word”.
It is so hard to connect experience to reason, especially in relation to questions underlying religious perspectives. It is difficult to stand outside of subjectivity and basic conditioning. I would say that even though I am take a philosophical approach in trying to think objectively, it may be that the effects of my religious upbringing affect me on a deeper level. The balance between emotions and reason is precarious and may be critical in the development of thinking, especially in relation to religion and spirituality, whether people reject or accept these. Part of the problem may be that emotions and reason have such a complex interplay in life and in understanding. My own interest in philosophy is based on a concern for clarity in both, but, even so, it may be that the problem is that it is not possible to step out of subjective reality, and understanding of one's own views, including the sources of them in socialisation and one's motivation, alongside understanding historic reasoning and logic of ideas may be the best which one can explore. These may all be put together in trying to understand the inner life and whatever lies beyond this. It does seem that even if individuals seek to do this, the conclusions which are formed differ so much, especially whether there is a God or not. Personally, I find understanding ultimate answers to this extremely difficult, and I may be accused of sitting on the fence. I am not wishing to be agnostic, although it may be a default position, but, at this stage in my life, I find it hard to know to what extent the experience of 'God', or the mysterious source of the unknown is based on a wish for there to be a 'transcendent reality', or the existence of this as an objectivity for explaining all that is known or unknown.
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Angelo Cannata
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

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I think that a mistake we frequently make in philosophy is looking for conclusive, ultimate, definitive answers, that, as such, are conceived in a static mentality. I think that Heraclitus, with his concept of becoming extended to everything, has stil a lot to tell us. So, about the relationship between experience and reason, for example, I think that the best way is to conceive them as in a permanent dialectic relationship, each one continuously enriching and criticizing the other one, for an infinite growth. I think that spirituality should be organized this way, as continuous growth, enthusiastic about demolishing its own mental frames to explore new and better ones. Isn't this philosophy as well? For this reason, the ultimate answer that I find to a lot of questions and problems, perhaps really all of them, is something like "let's do research about this, let's criticize, let's keep ourselves away from looking for conclusive answers". As humans, we may need some kind of rest, which means, temporarily static answers, as to say: for today let's adopt this scheme, but tomorrow we need to find its defects, because it is impossible for any scheme, any answer, to be the perfect and ultimate one.
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

JackDaydream wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:15 pm In asking this question I am not simply asking for the definitions of the idea of spirituality and religion but enquiring a little deeper about the relationship between the two areas The different uses of the term are certainly relevant but I see it as a fuzzy crossover area.

Religions are organized and bound up with the social aspects of religious observances whereas spirituality can be in such contexts or outside of them as an aspect of searching for 'truth'. It doesn't have to go hand in hand with belief in a particular worldview or with belief in God. The 'new atheist', Sam Harris, argued for an approach to spirituality independently of belief in God.

So, in this thread I am asking you about the idea of spirituality and its connection to religion. Do you find the term spirituality helpful or not in navigating your way around belief systems or philosophy?
I agree with the bolded. Religion deals with organizing a community around rules and laws and consequences so one can live in peace and conflicts can be resolved without bloodshed. Thus the Golden Rule, and keep your hands off your neighbor's wife.
Spirituality has nothing to do with all that. It is internal self-evolution and the individual's relationship to the divinity for which one may or may not have a name other than "what exists and all that exists."
I will add that religion is also deeply intertwined with the culture and language of the soil in which it is born. Thus God or Allah is grounded in Christianity and Islam and have distinct meanings and definitions that are different from say Shiva or Brhman. The basis for spirituality also to a great extent lies within that religion's sacred texts which include the inspirations and thoughts and observations of all those who came before one. These texts are a mixed bag full of interpretations and the need to organize society. They are not all about spirituality. And so discernment and discrimination are required to filter the truth from the chaff and find a path to spirituality.
I do not believe spirituality can be independent of a concept of divinity, an eternal existence.
"The Serpent did not lie."
heracleitos
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Post by heracleitos »

AmericanKestrel wrote: June 6th, 2022, 5:30 pm These texts are a mixed bag full of interpretations and the need to organize society. They are not all about spirituality.
The format of the scriptures facilitates remembering and therefore transmitting. In my opinion, that is why the narrative, i.e. storytelling, is the dominant format. Separation of concerns, such as separating transcendental spirituality from moral theory, i.e. unmixing the bag, was indeed not a concern.
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Re: What is Spirituality and How is it Related to Religion?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

heracleitos wrote: June 6th, 2022, 9:05 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: June 6th, 2022, 5:30 pm These texts are a mixed bag full of interpretations and the need to organize society. They are not all about spirituality.
The format of the scriptures facilitates remembering and therefore transmitting. In my opinion, that is why the narrative, i.e. storytelling, is the dominant format. Separation of concerns, such as separating transcendental spirituality from moral theory, i.e. unmixing the bag, was indeed not a concern.
I agree that the mythologies and epics are a means of transmitting transcendental concepts in easy packages. The upanishads in Hinduism at the end of the Vedas, which are all about conduct of life, are cryptic writings hold the message of transcendence and oneness. Spirituality for some can be spontaneous, for some it may never appeal, for most of us it is a lot learning and practice and owning it.
"The Serpent did not lie."
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