Christianity, Faith and Reason: What is Symbolic or Literal?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Nick_A
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Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Christianity, Faith and Reason: What is Symbolic or Literal?

Post by Nick_A »

JackDaydream wrote: June 10th, 2022, 9:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 10th, 2022, 7:17 pm Demons and daemons are not the same. I believe a person can experience demonic influences a well as the beneficial influences of a daemon. Socrates had a daemon:

<a class="vglnk" href="https://markandrealexander.com/2015/07/ ... ner-voice/" rel="nofollow"><span>https</span><span>://</span><span>markandrealexander</span><span>.</span><span>com</span><span>/</span><span>2015</span><span>/</span><span>07</span><span>/</span><span>23</span><span>/</span><span>socrates</span><span>-</span><span>divine</span><span>-</span><span>inner</span><span>-</span><span>voice</span><span>/</span></a>
Socrates often mentions that he is guided by a daemon, a kind of divine spirit, oracle, or “sign,” that takes the form of an inner voice or non-vocal nudge. The guide never tells Socrates what to do. It only indicates when Socrates is not to do something.

This distinction is important. One way to tell that a dialogue is spurious is if it has Socrates’ daemon tell someone else what to do.

Socrates learned over time to listen to this inner divine voice. He acted in service to it. Nothing that he does in his life is untouched by this inner divine voice.

He describes it in the Apology:

You have heard me speak at sundry times and in diverse places of an oracle or sign which comes to me, and is the divinity which Meletus ridicules in the indictment. This sign, which is a kind of voice, first began to come to me when I was a child; it always forbids but never commands me to do anything which I am going to do. This is what deters me from being a politician.

Later, he explains that the defense he is giving to the Athenian court has been approved by this inner divine voice.

Hitherto the divine faculty of which the internal oracle is the source has constantly been in the habit of opposing me even about trifles, if I was going to make a slip or error in any matter; and now as you see there has come upon me that which may be thought, and is generally believed to be, the last and worst evil. But the oracle made no sign of opposition, either when I was leaving my house in the morning, or when I was on my way to the court, or while I was speaking, at anything which I was going to say; and yet I have often been stopped in the middle of a speech, but now in nothing I either said or did touching the matter in hand has the oracle opposed me. What do I take to be the explanation of this silence? I will tell you. It is an intimation that what has happened to me is a good, and that those of us who think that death is an evil are in error. For the customary sign would surely have opposed me had I been going to evil and not to good.
So I don't know how to find the truth in this. But when a demon announces that it is Jesus Christ, my gut feeling is to be very wary of what one has channelled. It may want to feed on you rather then serve you.
The idea of the daimon and demons is such a big difference and most people are far more familiar with the concept of demons. The idea of the daimon may far more obscure. In thinking about channelling it does seem that caution is extremely important, to avoid succumbing to the dark side of the collective unconscious. However, this aspect may be part of life anyway, so it may be that some kind of critical discernment is part of the process of thinking about all ideas which arise in a the human mind. Some may be dressed up in the veils of notions of the supernatural. The whole idea of the supernatural as a foundation can be problematic in itself, as if it comes from some higher dimension. It is so easy to become confused here. In separating the natural and supernatural, as well as any ideals derived from these notions, is a the task of phlosophy. The principle of reason is extremely important, but this may be about the essentials of ethics and human values, as well as the metaphysics and epistemology underlying religious perspectives, including the philosophy of Christianity.
JackDaydream wrote: June 10th, 2022, 9:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 10th, 2022, 7:17 pm Demons and daemons are not the same. I believe a person can experience demonic influences a well as the beneficial influences of a daemon. Socrates had a daemon:

https://markandrealexander.com/2015/07/ ... ner-voice/
Socrates often mentions that he is guided by a daemon, a kind of divine spirit, oracle, or “sign,” that takes the form of an inner voice or non-vocal nudge. The guide never tells Socrates what to do. It only indicates when Socrates is not to do something.

This distinction is important. One way to tell that a dialogue is spurious is if it has Socrates’ daemon tell someone else what to do.

Socrates learned over time to listen to this inner divine voice. He acted in service to it. Nothing that he does in his life is untouched by this inner divine voice.

He describes it in the Apology:

You have heard me speak at sundry times and in diverse places of an oracle or sign which comes to me, and is the divinity which Meletus ridicules in the indictment. This sign, which is a kind of voice, first began to come to me when I was a child; it always forbids but never commands me to do anything which I am going to do. This is what deters me from being a politician.

Later, he explains that the defense he is giving to the Athenian court has been approved by this inner divine voice.

Hitherto the divine faculty of which the internal oracle is the source has constantly been in the habit of opposing me even about trifles, if I was going to make a slip or error in any matter; and now as you see there has come upon me that which may be thought, and is generally believed to be, the last and worst evil. But the oracle made no sign of opposition, either when I was leaving my house in the morning, or when I was on my way to the court, or while I was speaking, at anything which I was going to say; and yet I have often been stopped in the middle of a speech, but now in nothing I either said or did touching the matter in hand has the oracle opposed me. What do I take to be the explanation of this silence? I will tell you. It is an intimation that what has happened to me is a good, and that those of us who think that death is an evil are in error. For the customary sign would surely have opposed me had I been going to evil and not to good.
So I don't know how to find the truth in this. But when a demon announces that it is Jesus Christ, my gut feeling is to be very wary of what one has channelled. It may want to feed on you rather then serve you.
The idea of the daimon and demons is such a big difference and most people are far more familiar with the concept of demons. The idea of the daimon may far more obscure. In thinking about channelling it does seem that caution is extremely important, to avoid succumbing to the dark side of the collective unconscious. However, this aspect may be part of life anyway, so it may be that some kind of critical discernment is part of the process of thinking about all ideas which arise in a the human mind. Some may be dressed up in the veils of notions of the supernatural. The whole idea of the supernatural as a foundation can be problematic in itself, as if it comes from some higher dimension. It is so easy to become confused here. In separating the natural and supernatural, as well as any ideals derived from these notions, is a the task of phlosophy. The principle of reason is extremely important, but this may be about the essentials of ethics and human values, as well as the metaphysics and epistemology underlying religious perspectives, including the philosophy of Christianity.
I watched an old sci fi classic "The Forbidden Planet" tonight. The suggested idea here is that a super intelligence can create thought forms called "Monsters from the Id" This is really a thought form like we've been discussing.

The Krell were peaceful people but were unaware of the power of the subconscious id and what it can create. Maybe man can create its own demons; who knows.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
EricPH
Posts: 449
Joined: October 22nd, 2021, 11:26 am

Re: Christianity, Faith and Reason: What is Symbolic or Literal?

Post by EricPH »

Socrates often mentions that he is guided by a daemon, a kind of divine spirit, oracle, or “sign,” that takes the form of an inner voice or non-vocal nudge. The guide never tells Socrates what to do. It only indicates when Socrates is not to do something
.

As the thread is about Chritianity, the inner voice is the voice of good and evil, our conscience. Do we have to obey our conscience, or do we have a certain amount of freedom to do as we choose?

The ancient indians described this struggle by saying, we have two wolves inside us who are always fighting. One is the angry wolf, the other is the kind and caring wolf. The question you have to ask is, which wolf wins?

And it is always the one we choose to feed. All the time we feed the angry wolf it becomes stronger. The kind wolf becomes weaker, it sits there waiting to be fed. We should be in control of which wolf we choose to feed.
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JackDaydream
Posts: 3219
Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Re: Christianity, Faith and Reason: What is Symbolic or Literal?

Post by JackDaydream »

Nick_A wrote: June 18th, 2022, 11:50 pm
JackDaydream wrote: June 10th, 2022, 9:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 10th, 2022, 7:17 pm Demons and daemons are not the same. I believe a person can experience demonic influences a well as the beneficial influences of a daemon. Socrates had a daemon:

<a class="vglnk" href="https://markandrealexander.com/2015/07/ ... ner-voice/" rel="nofollow"><span>https</span><span>://</span><span>markandrealexander</span><span>.</span><span>com</span><span>/</span><span>2015</span><span>/</span><span>07</span><span>/</span><span>23</span><span>/</span><span>socrates</span><span>-</span><span>divine</span><span>-</span><span>inner</span><span>-</span><span>voice</span><span>/</span></a>
Socrates often mentions that he is guided by a daemon, a kind of divine spirit, oracle, or “sign,” that takes the form of an inner voice or non-vocal nudge. The guide never tells Socrates what to do. It only indicates when Socrates is not to do something.

This distinction is important. One way to tell that a dialogue is spurious is if it has Socrates’ daemon tell someone else what to do.

Socrates learned over time to listen to this inner divine voice. He acted in service to it. Nothing that he does in his life is untouched by this inner divine voice.

He describes it in the Apology:

You have heard me speak at sundry times and in diverse places of an oracle or sign which comes to me, and is the divinity which Meletus ridicules in the indictment. This sign, which is a kind of voice, first began to come to me when I was a child; it always forbids but never commands me to do anything which I am going to do. This is what deters me from being a politician.

Later, he explains that the defense he is giving to the Athenian court has been approved by this inner divine voice.

Hitherto the divine faculty of which the internal oracle is the source has constantly been in the habit of opposing me even about trifles, if I was going to make a slip or error in any matter; and now as you see there has come upon me that which may be thought, and is generally believed to be, the last and worst evil. But the oracle made no sign of opposition, either when I was leaving my house in the morning, or when I was on my way to the court, or while I was speaking, at anything which I was going to say; and yet I have often been stopped in the middle of a speech, but now in nothing I either said or did touching the matter in hand has the oracle opposed me. What do I take to be the explanation of this silence? I will tell you. It is an intimation that what has happened to me is a good, and that those of us who think that death is an evil are in error. For the customary sign would surely have opposed me had I been going to evil and not to good.
So I don't know how to find the truth in this. But when a demon announces that it is Jesus Christ, my gut feeling is to be very wary of what one has channelled. It may want to feed on you rather then serve you.
The idea of the daimon and demons is such a big difference and most people are far more familiar with the concept of demons. The idea of the daimon may far more obscure. In thinking about channelling it does seem that caution is extremely important, to avoid succumbing to the dark side of the collective unconscious. However, this aspect may be part of life anyway, so it may be that some kind of critical discernment is part of the process of thinking about all ideas which arise in a the human mind. Some may be dressed up in the veils of notions of the supernatural. The whole idea of the supernatural as a foundation can be problematic in itself, as if it comes from some higher dimension. It is so easy to become confused here. In separating the natural and supernatural, as well as any ideals derived from these notions, is a the task of phlosophy. The principle of reason is extremely important, but this may be about the essentials of ethics and human values, as well as the metaphysics and epistemology underlying religious perspectives, including the philosophy of Christianity.
JackDaydream wrote: June 10th, 2022, 9:57 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 10th, 2022, 7:17 pm Demons and daemons are not the same. I believe a person can experience demonic influences a well as the beneficial influences of a daemon. Socrates had a daemon:

https://markandrealexander.com/2015/07/ ... ner-voice/
Socrates often mentions that he is guided by a daemon, a kind of divine spirit, oracle, or “sign,” that takes the form of an inner voice or non-vocal nudge. The guide never tells Socrates what to do. It only indicates when Socrates is not to do something.

This distinction is important. One way to tell that a dialogue is spurious is if it has Socrates’ daemon tell someone else what to do.

Socrates learned over time to listen to this inner divine voice. He acted in service to it. Nothing that he does in his life is untouched by this inner divine voice.

He describes it in the Apology:

You have heard me speak at sundry times and in diverse places of an oracle or sign which comes to me, and is the divinity which Meletus ridicules in the indictment. This sign, which is a kind of voice, first began to come to me when I was a child; it always forbids but never commands me to do anything which I am going to do. This is what deters me from being a politician.

Later, he explains that the defense he is giving to the Athenian court has been approved by this inner divine voice.

Hitherto the divine faculty of which the internal oracle is the source has constantly been in the habit of opposing me even about trifles, if I was going to make a slip or error in any matter; and now as you see there has come upon me that which may be thought, and is generally believed to be, the last and worst evil. But the oracle made no sign of opposition, either when I was leaving my house in the morning, or when I was on my way to the court, or while I was speaking, at anything which I was going to say; and yet I have often been stopped in the middle of a speech, but now in nothing I either said or did touching the matter in hand has the oracle opposed me. What do I take to be the explanation of this silence? I will tell you. It is an intimation that what has happened to me is a good, and that those of us who think that death is an evil are in error. For the customary sign would surely have opposed me had I been going to evil and not to good.
So I don't know how to find the truth in this. But when a demon announces that it is Jesus Christ, my gut feeling is to be very wary of what one has channelled. It may want to feed on you rather then serve you.
The idea of the daimon and demons is such a big difference and most people are far more familiar with the concept of demons. The idea of the daimon may far more obscure. In thinking about channelling it does seem that caution is extremely important, to avoid succumbing to the dark side of the collective unconscious. However, this aspect may be part of life anyway, so it may be that some kind of critical discernment is part of the process of thinking about all ideas which arise in a the human mind. Some may be dressed up in the veils of notions of the supernatural. The whole idea of the supernatural as a foundation can be problematic in itself, as if it comes from some higher dimension. It is so easy to become confused here. In separating the natural and supernatural, as well as any ideals derived from these notions, is a the task of phlosophy. The principle of reason is extremely important, but this may be about the essentials of ethics and human values, as well as the metaphysics and epistemology underlying religious perspectives, including the philosophy of Christianity.
I watched an old sci fi classic "The Forbidden Planet" tonight. The suggested idea here is that a super intelligence can create thought forms called "Monsters from the Id" This is really a thought form like we've been discussing.

The Krell were peaceful people but were unaware of the power of the subconscious id and what it can create. Maybe man can create its own demons; who knows.
I do remember reading in theosophy that human beings can create their own demons. To some extent, the idea makes sense because the problems which we make for ourselves by dwelling on the negative can turn into demons. It would also be compatible with Jung's idea of the nature of complexes, which do have some basis in the unconscious itself, but are connected with how people direct and focus their thinking too. I find Jung's own ideas on the integration of the shadow important although it is not an easy task at all. I also wonder how Jung's idea of the shadow equates with Plato's beast, because it is about what to do with the lower, inferior aspects of the self or human nature.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Christianity, Faith and Reason: What is Symbolic or Literal?

Post by JackDaydream »

EricPH wrote: June 19th, 2022, 2:38 am
Socrates often mentions that he is guided by a daemon, a kind of divine spirit, oracle, or “sign,” that takes the form of an inner voice or non-vocal nudge. The guide never tells Socrates what to do. It only indicates when Socrates is not to do something
.

As the thread is about Chritianity, the inner voice is the voice of good and evil, our conscience. Do we have to obey our conscience, or do we have a certain amount of freedom to do as we choose?

The ancient indians described this struggle by saying, we have two wolves inside us who are always fighting. One is the angry wolf, the other is the kind and caring wolf. The question you have to ask is, which wolf wins?

And it is always the one we choose to feed. All the time we feed the angry wolf it becomes stronger. The kind wolf becomes weaker, it sits there waiting to be fed. We should be in control of which wolf we choose to feed.
Your quote from Socrates is useful because it is about the struggle between the inner voices and choosing the correct one to follow. Conscience is an extremely important construct but may often not be given the attention it deserves. However, life is complex and getting the balance and priorities correct is not always easy. In many ways, Christianity emphasized moral perfection which may have been about trying to kill the angry wolf but he fought back and turned even fiercer and nastier as a result.

Even the Christian idea of loving one's neighbour as oneself is not as simple as it may sound. It can be that part of the problem is knowing how to love one's neighbour requires an understanding of how to love oneself in the first place, in order to know what the neighbour needs. One basis for understanding human needs which are appropriate to such an understanding may be Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which range from the basic ones for physiological survival, the social ones to the higher ones of creativity and self-actualization.
EricPH
Posts: 449
Joined: October 22nd, 2021, 11:26 am

Re: Christianity, Faith and Reason: What is Symbolic or Literal?

Post by EricPH »

JackDaydream wrote: June 19th, 2022, 11:43 am Christianity emphasized moral perfection
I don't think there can be a moral perfection. The most we can strive for is a greatest good. The greatest good is not a 'one off action'; rather it is a lifetime struggle to search for and most importantly to act on.
moral perfection which may have been about trying to kill the angry wolf but he fought back and turned even fiercer and nastier as a result.
You are describing human nature. Civil wars can go on for hundreds of years, it is neighbours fighting neighbours. Every angry action is met by an even angrier reaction. The conflict is passed on from one generation to the next. Why should anger be passed onto your children and grandchildren's generations? You can only live in peace if your neighbours and your enemies can live in peace.

The teachings of Christ taught us to forgive, to love and to pray for our enemies, to show mercy. You can only kill anger with kindness, mercy and forgiveness. This is very much sacrificial, you give up your right for justice in the hope your neighbours, your children and grandchildren can live in peace.
Even the Christian idea of loving one's neighbour as oneself is not as simple as it may sound.
This is the greatest commandment to love God and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves; we can do nothing greater. It's certainly not simple, but I do believe it to be a worthwhile lifetime struggle. If we see how our actions affect other people, it might help and guide us to becoming kinder and more caring.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Christianity, Faith and Reason: What is Symbolic or Literal?

Post by JackDaydream »

EricPH wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 7:03 am
JackDaydream wrote: June 19th, 2022, 11:43 am Christianity emphasized moral perfection
I don't think there can be a moral perfection. The most we can strive for is a greatest good. The greatest good is not a 'one off action'; rather it is a lifetime struggle to search for and most importantly to act on.
moral perfection which may have been about trying to kill the angry wolf but he fought back and turned even fiercer and nastier as a result.
You are describing human nature. Civil wars can go on for hundreds of years, it is neighbours fighting neighbours. Every angry action is met by an even angrier reaction. The conflict is passed on from one generation to the next. Why should anger be passed onto your children and grandchildren's generations? You can only live in peace if your neighbours and your enemies can live in peace.

The teachings of Christ taught us to forgive, to love and to pray for our enemies, to show mercy. You can only kill anger with kindness, mercy and forgiveness. This is very much sacrificial, you give up your right for justice in the hope your neighbours, your children and grandchildren can live in peace.
Even the Christian idea of loving one's neighbour as oneself is not as simple as it may sound.
This is the greatest commandment to love God and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves; we can do nothing greater. It's certainly not simple, but I do believe it to be a worthwhile lifetime struggle. If we see how our actions affect other people, it might help and guide us to becoming kinder and more caring.
It does seem that moral perfection is difficult indeed, with the martyrs seeming to be those who follow the ideal of the 'imitation of Christ'. It is likely that the idea of loving one's neighbour involves the deepest sense of compassion, which may be based on personal experience of suffering.

I am not a concrete thinker and do struggle with knowing and understanding the literal or symbolic aspects, but, certainly, the lessons of life seem to be essential in the ongoing understanding of oneself, and others.
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