The Belief System War

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
JHuber
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Re: The Belief System War

Post by JHuber »

Alias wrote: September 3rd, 2022, 9:25 pm
JHuber wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 6:58 pm Let me put it this way. If you take away the legitimacy of religion,
How would you go about doing that?
That's what I was trying to say in the original post.
Alias wrote: September 3rd, 2022, 9:25 pm
JHuber wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 6:58 pm Besides, there is integrity at stake here. Christians, Jews, Muslims, and atheists all can't be right.
So what? They can each think right, coexist and each believe the others are will either convert or go to hell when they die a natural, non-violent death.
This makes me think about what happened in Yugoslavia.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The Belief System War

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JHuber wrote: September 4th, 2022, 7:35 am Metaphysics aspires to be universally factual/absolute.
On the contrary, many of the topics that metaphysics addresses are not the sort of issues where facts and absolutes feature much, if at all. These are topics where justified conclusions are rare, sometimes actually impossible. If there is benefit to metaphysics — and I definitely think there is! — it is in the journey, not the destination, which is rarely reached. But we can learn much on the way, which is the point of metaphysics, I think?
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LuckyR
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Re: The Belief System War

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 4th, 2022, 9:42 am
JHuber wrote: September 4th, 2022, 7:35 am Metaphysics aspires to be universally factual/absolute.
On the contrary, many of the topics that metaphysics addresses are not the sort of issues where facts and absolutes feature much, if at all. These are topics where justified conclusions are rare, sometimes actually impossible. If there is benefit to metaphysics — and I definitely think there is! — it is in the journey, not the destination, which is rarely reached. But we can learn much on the way, which is the point of metaphysics, I think?
I'd even go beyond that to say that the metaphysical is what's left over after you remove the factual.
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Dashcrush
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Re: The Belief System War

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Most Christians believe that war should be avoided if possible, and should only be undertaken if all efforts to resolve an issue by peaceful means have failed. Many Christians see war as the result of a failure to live by God's standards.










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JHuber
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Re: The Belief System War

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Pattern-chaser wrote: September 4th, 2022, 9:42 am
JHuber wrote: September 4th, 2022, 7:35 am Metaphysics aspires to be universally factual/absolute.
On the contrary, many of the topics that metaphysics addresses are not the sort of issues where facts and absolutes feature much, if at all. These are topics where justified conclusions are rare, sometimes actually impossible. If there is benefit to metaphysics — and I definitely think there is! — it is in the journey, not the destination, which is rarely reached. But we can learn much on the way, which is the point of metaphysics, I think?
Well then, I have to ask, do you think that metaphysics should be based on subjects and relations instead of particulars and universals?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The Belief System War

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JHuber wrote: September 4th, 2022, 7:35 am Metaphysics aspires to be universally factual/absolute.
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 4th, 2022, 9:42 am On the contrary, many of the topics that metaphysics addresses are not the sort of issues where facts and absolutes feature much, if at all. These are topics where justified conclusions are rare, sometimes actually impossible. If there is benefit to metaphysics — and I definitely think there is! — it is in the journey, not the destination, which is rarely reached. But we can learn much on the way, which is the point of metaphysics, I think?
JHuber wrote: September 5th, 2022, 5:39 am Well then, I have to ask, do you think that metaphysics should be based on subjects and relations instead of particulars and universals?
Given that "particulars and universals" seem to refer to empirical evidence — something often lacking (or absent) in metaphysical discussions — I suppose it would have to be the former?
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JHuber
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Re: The Belief System War

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Pattern-chaser wrote: September 5th, 2022, 6:44 am Given that "particulars and universals" seem to refer to empirical evidence — something often lacking (or absent) in metaphysical discussions — I suppose it would have to be the former?
One would think it would have to be the former but it isn't. Academic metaphysics is based on particulars and universals. If it were based on subjects and relations instead, then metaphysics would be a system that we are already in. We all are subjects and we all have relatives. That doesn't work with particulars and universals. The fossil record is the evidence. That would make metaphysics conform with evolution. As you might see it goes on from there. It would also be the end of nihilism which is defined as there is no system.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The Belief System War

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Pattern-chaser wrote: September 5th, 2022, 6:44 am Given that "particulars and universals" seem to refer to empirical evidence — something often lacking (or absent) in metaphysical discussions — I suppose it would have to be the former?
JHuber wrote: September 6th, 2022, 7:43 am One would think it would have to be the former but it isn't. Academic metaphysics is based on particulars and universals. If it were based on subjects and relations instead, then metaphysics would be a system that we are already in. We all are subjects and we all have relatives. That doesn't work with particulars and universals. The fossil record is the evidence. That would make metaphysics conform with evolution. As you might see it goes on from there. It would also be the end of nihilism which is defined as there is no system.
It seems we have some very different ideas about what metaphysics is, to the extent that communication between us is nigh on impossible, on this topic, at least. Sorry.
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Re: The Belief System War

Post by Alias »

JHuber wrote: September 4th, 2022, 7:51 am Let me put it this way. If you take away the legitimacy of religion,
How would you go about doing that?
That's what I was trying to say in the original post.
No, you were on about academic whatever. I meant, what practical steps, taken by real people, in the real world, where 84% of the population subscribe to a religion, would you take, or could anyone take, to de-legitimize religion?
You can't bloody do it! That simple. People want their panacea, their opium, their solace and salvation, their hope of immortality and wishes fulfilled. People miss their dead parents and want to be cured of cancer. They'll believe any damn silly thing to keep that hope going, even if they only half believe it. The more you try to talk them out of it, the harder they'll cling and more angry they'll be with you.
What turns people away from religion is prosperity, physical security and optimism.
People don't have those things now, so religion is growing.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The Belief System War

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Alias wrote: September 6th, 2022, 11:37 pm No, you were on about academic whatever. I meant, what practical steps, taken by real people, in the real world, where 84% of the population subscribe to a religion, would you take, or could anyone take, to de-legitimize religion?
You can't bloody do it! That simple.
Agreed.


Alias wrote: September 6th, 2022, 11:37 pm People want their panacea, their opium, their solace and salvation, their hope of immortality and wishes fulfilled. People miss their dead parents and want to be cured of cancer. They'll believe any damn silly thing to keep that hope going, even if they only half believe it. The more you try to talk them out of it, the harder they'll cling and more angry they'll be with you.
What turns people away from religion is prosperity, physical security and optimism.
People don't have those things now, so religion is growing.
I believe, but not for any of the above reasons, which appear trivial to me. My religious beliefs give my life, and my thinking, direction.
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JHuber
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Re: The Belief System War

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Alias wrote: September 6th, 2022, 11:37 pm No, you were on about academic whatever. I meant, what practical steps, taken by real people, in the real world, where 84% of the population subscribe to a religion, would you take, or could anyone take, to de-legitimize religion?
You can't bloody do it! That simple.
If academic metaphysics were to change from particulars and universals to subjects and relations that would de-legitimize religion. What would need to be done is for an author such as Michael J. Loux to retract his book, "Metaphysics, A Contemporary Introduction," and then rewrite it in terms of subjects and relations. Not likely he would ever do that though but that might work.
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Re: The Belief System War

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JHuber wrote: September 7th, 2022, 6:58 pm
If academic metaphysics were to change from particulars and universals to subjects and relations that would de-legitimize religion.
No, it would not kill God.
What would need to be done is for an author such as Michael J. Loux to retract his book, "Metaphysics, A Contemporary Introduction," and then rewrite it in terms of subjects and relations. Not likely he would ever do that though but that might work.
If Michael J. Loux book stood the test of time, like a thousand or two years, he might be onto something. If he has to retract it in his own lifetime, then it becomes like a work of fiction.
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Re: The Belief System War

Post by Alias »

I believe, but not for any of the above reasons, which appear trivial to me. My religious beliefs give my life, and my thinking, direction.
I did neglect that reason: Because they're lost and need somebody to direct their their lives and thoughts.
JHuber -- If academic metaphysics were to change from particulars and universals to subjects and relations that would de-legitimize religion. What would need to be done is for an author such as Michael J. Loux to retract his book, "Metaphysics, A Contemporary Introduction," and then rewrite it in terms of subjects and relations. Not likely he would ever do that though but that might work.
Work on whom and do what??? Philosophy students might come away with a differently shaped buzzing in their heads? Can you show me the net impact on world politics, economics, diplomacy, intelligence, science and technology, social welfare or the national rates of infant mortality and wrongful imprisonment of philosophy students?
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Re: The Belief System War

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote:I believe, but not for any of the above reasons, which appear trivial to me. My religious beliefs give my life, and my thinking, direction.
Alias wrote: September 8th, 2022, 1:00 am I did neglect that reason: Because they're lost and need somebody to direct their lives and thoughts.
How quaint that you see fit to demean my beliefs without apparent purpose. 🤔

I am not lost. My beliefs lead me to a general perspective on life, the universe, and everything. I knowingly and willingly adopt and use this perspective. My life and my thoughts are my own, directed by me, inasmuch as that is possible in an near-infinitely-interconnected universe. I repeat: I am not lost, nor do I seek to be 'found'. Thanks.
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JHuber
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Re: The Belief System War

Post by JHuber »

Alias wrote: September 8th, 2022, 1:00 am
JHuber -- If academic metaphysics were to change from particulars and universals to subjects and relations that would de-legitimize religion. What would need to be done is for an author such as Michael J. Loux to retract his book, "Metaphysics, A Contemporary Introduction," and then rewrite it in terms of subjects and relations. Not likely he would ever do that though but that might work.
Work on whom and do what??? Philosophy students might come away with a differently shaped buzzing in their heads? Can you show me the net impact on world politics, economics, diplomacy, intelligence, science and technology, social welfare or the national rates of infant mortality and wrongful imprisonment of philosophy students?
Not briefly of course. I can say this though, subjects and relations are the highest of all words in terms of scope. It's like the top node of a system. If you change the top node of any system all of the elements in the system are affected.

P.S. I'm going on vacation for a couple weeks.
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