Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Ima8gining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by JackDaydream »

The Beast wrote: September 9th, 2022, 11:40 am
JackDaydream wrote: September 8th, 2022, 1:08 pm
The Beast wrote: September 8th, 2022, 10:08 am Hi.
The idea of rebirth and its belief is being one in congruency with substance dualism. How is the Jungian idea of archetype rebirth compared to the Descartes idea of dualism? In the idea of Descartes, the physical and the mental are two different things connected by the forms. Forms are immaterial and the intellect have an affinity with the Forms. It is what Frege called concepts. Although Jung archetype of rebirth include metempsychosis, reincarnation, resurrection, he was mostly interested in psychological rebirth or individuation by ritual or forum experiences.
Frege: “The behavior of the concept is essentially predicative, even where something is being asserted about it; consequently, it can be replaced there by another concept, never by an object. Thus, the assertion that is made about a concept does not suit an object. Second level concepts, which concept fall under, are essentially different from first-level concepts, which objects fall under. The relation of an object to a first-level concept that it falls under is different from the (admittedly similar) of a first-level to a second-level concept. (To do justice at once to the distinction and to the similarity, we might say: An object falls under a first-level concept; a concept falls within a second level-concept). The distinction of concept and object thus still holds with all its sharpness.”
The main thesis of Frege is that fruitful definitions involve comprehension, and that logic is informative, and comprehension is a part of pure logic. Then:
Second-level concepts are quantifiers.
Zero is a number
Zero is nor the successor of another number
Every number is the successor of another number.
Ex: In modern physics there is an object (Universe) with zero mass and first-level concepts originating second-level concepts (quantifiers).
I haven't read Frege. As far as Jung is concerned, he does speak of the possibility of reincarnation in his autobiography, 'Memories, Dreams and Reflections. However, he is speculating and contemplating just like most of us do at times. The greatest Jungian text on the topic is, 'Many Lives, Many Masters', by Brian Weiss. In working as a hypnotherapist, with no prior thinking on reincarnation, he was working with a woman and uncovered past life. They were not just sketchy memories but really detailed. It certainly made him wonder about the possibility of reincarnation, although he was uncertain whether they were 'real' memories or based on tapping into the collective unconscious.
I had considered the electromagnetic force as fundamental in the structures of the brain. It is a possible mechanism for linking the mind to the brain. It is the electromagnetic involvement in the physiological processes that is responsible for the brain waves. An electromagnetic method of affinity to the Forms. An evolutionary metaphysical embrace. Yet, it is the quantum mechanical connection bringing together the physical phenomena and the mind. It is the mind of the observer complicated by the morphing of new processes and methods which in the words of Frege mean new concepts replacing old concepts. It is like this: If consciousness cannot be measured and it is non-physical then new methods ought to be concepts or/and quantum forces shaping new methods by the habit and in DNA. Actions forging as quantum forces or forces morphing old structures into new ones. Is it by living that we reach the onset of consciousness and of our unlimited potential. The testing of conscious activity has yielded methods like the Zap and Zip so to indulge in the “unpacking” and the integrating information theory assigning the quantifier ᵩ to conscious activity. The latter has determined that consciousness cannot be programmed but needs to arise in the system.
“Gnostic philosophy joined “Mater Alchimia” and repeats the Gnostic myth of the Nous, who, beholding his reflection in the depths below, plunged down and was swallowed in the embrace of Physis “
Are you proposing a new kind of dualism to account for a female spirit having phenomenal experiences of the male body? 'I propose the philosophy of the transgender dualism'
The relationship between Gnosticism and transgender is probably connected by the theme of androgyny. The Gnostics did emphasise the idea of God as having masculine and feminine characteristics. There is also a quote in 'The Gospel of St Phillip', which has led to some spectacular over its meaning. It is as follows:
'Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.'"

Jess said "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven'.

Some have speculated that this passage is about androgyny but others have seen it as being more about an emphasis on perfectionism, especially in the denial of bodily desires. I am inclined to view it in the second way in the context of the way that Gnosticism had an attitude of disdain for the body.

However, I have also read of some kind of gender deviance within groups in early Christianity. In particular, within the church the tradition of eunuchs involves physical feminisation through the removal of the testicles at puberty. The underlying reason was meant to stop the voice from breaking it into the male vocal range for singing, but it can also be seen as a way of creating physical androgyny.

Aside from Gnosticism some spiritualities have celebrated androgyny. These include some Hindu groups and The North American Indians. There have been sub sections of society celebrating androgyny including the idea of the berdache or a 'third gender'. These have often included people with physical intersex disorders, and people who feel an incongruity between spirit and body, including some whose sense of identity is that of a 'two spirit' person.

It is likely that transgender itself is based on the archetype of the androgyny or hermaphrodite on a symbolic level. This aspect of androgyny is often left out of discussion of transgender issues, in relation to it as having a 'spiritual' or mythical dimension.
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The Beast
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Ima8gining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by The Beast »

JackDaydream wrote: September 10th, 2022, 12:28 pm
The Beast wrote: September 9th, 2022, 11:40 am
JackDaydream wrote: September 8th, 2022, 1:08 pm
The Beast wrote: September 8th, 2022, 10:08 am Hi.
The idea of rebirth and its belief is being one in congruency with substance dualism. How is the Jungian idea of archetype rebirth compared to the Descartes idea of dualism? In the idea of Descartes, the physical and the mental are two different things connected by the forms. Forms are immaterial and the intellect have an affinity with the Forms. It is what Frege called concepts. Although Jung archetype of rebirth include metempsychosis, reincarnation, resurrection, he was mostly interested in psychological rebirth or individuation by ritual or forum experiences.
Frege: “The behavior of the concept is essentially predicative, even where something is being asserted about it; consequently, it can be replaced there by another concept, never by an object. Thus, the assertion that is made about a concept does not suit an object. Second level concepts, which concept fall under, are essentially different from first-level concepts, which objects fall under. The relation of an object to a first-level concept that it falls under is different from the (admittedly similar) of a first-level to a second-level concept. (To do justice at once to the distinction and to the similarity, we might say: An object falls under a first-level concept; a concept falls within a second level-concept). The distinction of concept and object thus still holds with all its sharpness.”
The main thesis of Frege is that fruitful definitions involve comprehension, and that logic is informative, and comprehension is a part of pure logic. Then:
Second-level concepts are quantifiers.
Zero is a number
Zero is nor the successor of another number
Every number is the successor of another number.
Ex: In modern physics there is an object (Universe) with zero mass and first-level concepts originating second-level concepts (quantifiers).
I haven't read Frege. As far as Jung is concerned, he does speak of the possibility of reincarnation in his autobiography, 'Memories, Dreams and Reflections. However, he is speculating and contemplating just like most of us do at times. The greatest Jungian text on the topic is, 'Many Lives, Many Masters', by Brian Weiss. In working as a hypnotherapist, with no prior thinking on reincarnation, he was working with a woman and uncovered past life. They were not just sketchy memories but really detailed. It certainly made him wonder about the possibility of reincarnation, although he was uncertain whether they were 'real' memories or based on tapping into the collective unconscious.
I had considered the electromagnetic force as fundamental in the structures of the brain. It is a possible mechanism for linking the mind to the brain. It is the electromagnetic involvement in the physiological processes that is responsible for the brain waves. An electromagnetic method of affinity to the Forms. An evolutionary metaphysical embrace. Yet, it is the quantum mechanical connection bringing together the physical phenomena and the mind. It is the mind of the observer complicated by the morphing of new processes and methods which in the words of Frege mean new concepts replacing old concepts. It is like this: If consciousness cannot be measured and it is non-physical then new methods ought to be concepts or/and quantum forces shaping new methods by the habit and in DNA. Actions forging as quantum forces or forces morphing old structures into new ones. Is it by living that we reach the onset of consciousness and of our unlimited potential. The testing of conscious activity has yielded methods like the Zap and Zip so to indulge in the “unpacking” and the integrating information theory assigning the quantifier ᵩ to conscious activity. The latter has determined that consciousness cannot be programmed but needs to arise in the system.
“Gnostic philosophy joined “Mater Alchimia” and repeats the Gnostic myth of the Nous, who, beholding his reflection in the depths below, plunged down and was swallowed in the embrace of Physis “
Are you proposing a new kind of dualism to account for a female spirit having phenomenal experiences of the male body? 'I propose the philosophy of the transgender dualism'
The relationship between Gnosticism and transgender is probably connected by the theme of androgyny. The Gnostics did emphasise the idea of God as having masculine and feminine characteristics. There is also a quote in 'The Gospel of St Phillip', which has led to some spectacular over its meaning. It is as follows:
'Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.'"

Jess said "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven'.

Some have speculated that this passage is about androgyny but others have seen it as being more about an emphasis on perfectionism, especially in the denial of bodily desires. I am inclined to view it in the second way in the context of the way that Gnosticism had an attitude of disdain for the body.

However, I have also read of some kind of gender deviance within groups in early Christianity. In particular, within the church the tradition of eunuchs involves physical feminisation through the removal of the testicles at puberty. The underlying reason was meant to stop the voice from breaking it into the male vocal range for singing, but it can also be seen as a way of creating physical androgyny.

Aside from Gnosticism some spiritualities have celebrated androgyny. These include some Hindu groups and The North American Indians. There have been sub sections of society celebrating androgyny including the idea of the berdache or a 'third gender'. These have often included people with physical intersex disorders, and people who feel an incongruity between spirit and body, including some whose sense of identity is that of a 'two spirit' person.

It is likely that transgender itself is based on the archetype of the androgyny or hermaphrodite on a symbolic level. This aspect of androgyny is often left out of discussion of transgender issues, in relation to it as having a 'spiritual' or mythical dimension.
From the psychological aspect it is not the same at the onset of consciousness than it is after the posterior manifestations of androgyny. This is not a conviction but an observation since I do not understand physical mutilation as means of emotional regulation and gender expression. If anything, it should lead to a worsen personality disorder. What is the expression of androgyny and why it involves anything else of what it is inside? There is a path or method uniting psychology and Alchemy: there is one stone, one medicine, one vessel, one method, one disposition. (Rosarium philosophorum). The vessel is the vessel of Hermes. The four elements (earth, fire, air, water) aligned to the four corners of a square connecting to the sphere at its center where the doctrine is poured. The four elements take the form of the four archetypes and since the vessel is a lucky seven the sphere is the manner of the axiom of Maria. I may use the doctrine represented by the three headed Minerva. Each head represents a version of her. That is: She who remembers; She who knows; She who measures. It Is then that the disposition is addressed. The Hell of Ovid’s metamorphoses to the dissenters of the doctrine. It is the way to’ Minerva and the arachnids’
In the Christian doctrine the four corners of the tetramorph are occupied by the four Evangelists and follow the same formulation of the vessel laid out in ‘Tractatus aureus’ then the doctrine is poured into the sphere. In this scheme Matthew the first Evangelist is a winged man or angel; Mark the second gospel by a winged lion; Luke as a winged ox or bull and John as the Eagle. The Gnostics were declared heretics in the Middle Ages mostly because of the beliefs (reincarnation) but also views on the barren nature of Mary Magdalene. They were unmarried and believed in adoption. There may be other gospels that may paint a Nature duality on Jesus, but the Holy Spirit do not allow mutilations in His Temple.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Ima8gining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by JackDaydream »

The Beast wrote: September 11th, 2022, 12:51 pm
JackDaydream wrote: September 10th, 2022, 12:28 pm
The Beast wrote: September 9th, 2022, 11:40 am
JackDaydream wrote: September 8th, 2022, 1:08 pm

I haven't read Frege. As far as Jung is concerned, he does speak of the possibility of reincarnation in his autobiography, 'Memories, Dreams and Reflections. However, he is speculating and contemplating just like most of us do at times. The greatest Jungian text on the topic is, 'Many Lives, Many Masters', by Brian Weiss. In working as a hypnotherapist, with no prior thinking on reincarnation, he was working with a woman and uncovered past life. They were not just sketchy memories but really detailed. It certainly made him wonder about the possibility of reincarnation, although he was uncertain whether they were 'real' memories or based on tapping into the collective unconscious.
I had considered the electromagnetic force as fundamental in the structures of the brain. It is a possible mechanism for linking the mind to the brain. It is the electromagnetic involvement in the physiological processes that is responsible for the brain waves. An electromagnetic method of affinity to the Forms. An evolutionary metaphysical embrace. Yet, it is the quantum mechanical connection bringing together the physical phenomena and the mind. It is the mind of the observer complicated by the morphing of new processes and methods which in the words of Frege mean new concepts replacing old concepts. It is like this: If consciousness cannot be measured and it is non-physical then new methods ought to be concepts or/and quantum forces shaping new methods by the habit and in DNA. Actions forging as quantum forces or forces morphing old structures into new ones. Is it by living that we reach the onset of consciousness and of our unlimited potential. The testing of conscious activity has yielded methods like the Zap and Zip so to indulge in the “unpacking” and the integrating information theory assigning the quantifier ᵩ to conscious activity. The latter has determined that consciousness cannot be programmed but needs to arise in the system.
“Gnostic philosophy joined “Mater Alchimia” and repeats the Gnostic myth of the Nous, who, beholding his reflection in the depths below, plunged down and was swallowed in the embrace of Physis “
Are you proposing a new kind of dualism to account for a female spirit having phenomenal experiences of the male body? 'I propose the philosophy of the transgender dualism'
The relationship between Gnosticism and transgender is probably connected by the theme of androgyny. The Gnostics did emphasise the idea of God as having masculine and feminine characteristics. There is also a quote in 'The Gospel of St Phillip', which has led to some spectacular over its meaning. It is as follows:
'Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.'"

Jess said "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven'.

Some have speculated that this passage is about androgyny but others have seen it as being more about an emphasis on perfectionism, especially in the denial of bodily desires. I am inclined to view it in the second way in the context of the way that Gnosticism had an attitude of disdain for the body.

However, I have also read of some kind of gender deviance within groups in early Christianity. In particular, within the church the tradition of eunuchs involves physical feminisation through the removal of the testicles at puberty. The underlying reason was meant to stop the voice from breaking it into the male vocal range for singing, but it can also be seen as a way of creating physical androgyny.

Aside from Gnosticism some spiritualities have celebrated androgyny. These include some Hindu groups and The North American Indians. There have been sub sections of society celebrating androgyny including the idea of the berdache or a 'third gender'. These have often included people with physical intersex disorders, and people who feel an incongruity between spirit and body, including some whose sense of identity is that of a 'two spirit' person.

It is likely that transgender itself is based on the archetype of the androgyny or hermaphrodite on a symbolic level. This aspect of androgyny is often left out of discussion of transgender issues, in relation to it as having a 'spiritual' or mythical dimension.
From the psychological aspect it is not the same at the onset of consciousness than it is after the posterior manifestations of androgyny. This is not a conviction but an observation since I do not understand physical mutilation as means of emotional regulation and gender expression. If anything, it should lead to a worsen personality disorder. What is the expression of androgyny and why it involves anything else of what it is inside? There is a path or method uniting psychology and Alchemy: there is one stone, one medicine, one vessel, one method, one disposition. (Rosarium philosophorum). The vessel is the vessel of Hermes. The four elements (earth, fire, air, water) aligned to the four corners of a square connecting to the sphere at its center where the doctrine is poured. The four elements take the form of the four archetypes and since the vessel is a lucky seven the sphere is the manner of the axiom of Maria. I may use the doctrine represented by the three headed Minerva. Each head represents a version of her. That is: She who remembers; She who knows; She who measures. It Is then that the disposition is addressed. The Hell of Ovid’s metamorphoses to the dissenters of the doctrine. It is the way to’ Minerva and the arachnids’
In the Christian doctrine the four corners of the tetramorph are occupied by the four Evangelists and follow the same formulation of the vessel laid out in ‘Tractatus aureus’ then the doctrine is poured into the sphere. In this scheme Matthew the first Evangelist is a winged man or angel; Mark the second gospel by a winged lion; Luke as a winged ox or bull and John as the Eagle. The Gnostics were declared heretics in the Middle Ages mostly because of the beliefs (reincarnation) but also views on the barren nature of Mary Magdalene. They were unmarried and believed in adoption. There may be other gospels that may paint a Nature duality on Jesus, but the Holy Spirit do not allow mutilations in His Temple.
The Jungian writer, June Singer, in her book., 'Androgyny' describes the symbolic aspects of the quest for androgyny based on mythology..She goes as far as arguing that the psychological process of androgyny is possible, without the need for physical transformation or transition. This seems sound as an ideal because it may not be that simple in practice. Some people, including drag artists have experimented with androgyny but for some people that is not enough. I know of a Jungian therapists who has worked with transgender clients and he has helped people who are transitioning to combine the physical and mythical aspects in their life journeys. He also worked with religious symbolism, and the use of art for understanding the shadow aspects of oneself, and the quest for some people may be about various aspects of mythical archetypes. It may be also about the shamanic journey in general, which embodies the idea of shapeshifting.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

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Shapeshifting may be helpful to people with affinities to the Christian doctrine. The Dzogchen attainment of the rainbow body and the Christian doctrine of the resurrection are brought together first in accounts of transmogrification to a credible phenomenon in the writings of Father Francis V. Tiso. Second. He also has translated to English works of the Syriac church of the East dealing with the Ancient Church in China.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

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The Beast wrote: September 11th, 2022, 5:10 pm Shapeshifting may be helpful to people with affinities to the Christian doctrine. The Dzogchen attainment of the rainbow body and the Christian doctrine of the resurrection are brought together first in accounts of transmogrification to a credible phenomenon in the writings of Father Francis V. Tiso. Second. He also has translated to English works of the Syriac church of the East dealing with the Ancient Church in China.
The idea of shapeshifting is probably alien to most people in Christianity. In many respects, shamanism was a forerunner to religious perspectives. However, it is possible to view the Christian drama from a shamanic perspective. Thay is because shamanism is understood as an aspect of the anthropology of belief and culture. There is also some interest in shamanism in Western thought and mythology, with the life of Jesus as connected to the role and archetypal shaman, or healer, who has descended to the underworld and upper world, bringing forth a healing vision for others to follow.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

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JackDaydream wrote: September 13th, 2022, 12:26 pm
The Beast wrote: September 11th, 2022, 5:10 pm Shapeshifting may be helpful to people with affinities to the Christian doctrine. The Dzogchen attainment of the rainbow body and the Christian doctrine of the resurrection are brought together first in accounts of transmogrification to a credible phenomenon in the writings of Father Francis V. Tiso. Second. He also has translated to English works of the Syriac church of the East dealing with the Ancient Church in China.
The idea of shapeshifting is probably alien to most people in Christianity. In many respects, shamanism was a forerunner to religious perspectives. However, it is possible to view the Christian drama from a shamanic perspective. Thay is because shamanism is understood as an aspect of the anthropology of belief and culture. There is also some interest in shamanism in Western thought and mythology, with the life of Jesus as connected to the role and archetypal shaman, or healer, who has descended to the underworld and upper world, bringing forth a healing vision for others to follow.
It is an unorthodox view of the dogma of Christianity favoring the continually crumbling away of the content of the Faith. Even the most benighted layman knows the personality of Jesus, a man and a God at the same time and also an enigma. “In my view one would be well advised to apply the papal dictum: Let be as it is, or not be at all” CG Jung. I know of Circe in the Iliad as the sorceress turning men into pigs. Or perhaps Carlos Castaneda successful Ph.D. in the 60’s opening the way to today's shapeshifting heroes. In the words of Don Juan: “Besides seeing is contrary to sorcery. Seeing makes one realize the unimportance of it all that is the unimportance of everything”. ‘A separate reality’ CC. Compare with:
“I am He who exists from the Undivided… It is I who am the light… I am the All. Everything came from Me, and Everything extends unto Me. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Part the stone, and you will find Me”. - Gospel of Thomas.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by EricPH »

The greatest miracle is the creation of the universe and life. If God can create life from no life, then he has the power to raise the dead, heal the sick and walk on water.

Every other miracle is minor compared to creation. God is a profound mystery, but I have no need to think in terms of Gnosticism or Mysticism.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

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I am personally unimpressed by faith in that which is impossible to prove. Anyone can make unproven assertions.

Religious experiences are what happens when people who believe have peak experiences. Due to the religious tendency to anthropomorphise the forces of nature, the wonder aspects of peak experiences are interpreted as personified, as perceived through the distorting and narrowly anthropocentric filter of theism.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by JackDaydream »

The Beast wrote: September 13th, 2022, 9:50 pm
JackDaydream wrote: September 13th, 2022, 12:26 pm
The Beast wrote: September 11th, 2022, 5:10 pm Shapeshifting may be helpful to people with affinities to the Christian doctrine. The Dzogchen attainment of the rainbow body and the Christian doctrine of the resurrection are brought together first in accounts of transmogrification to a credible phenomenon in the writings of Father Francis V. Tiso. Second. He also has translated to English works of the Syriac church of the East dealing with the Ancient Church in China.
The idea of shapeshifting is probably alien to most people in Christianity. In many respects, shamanism was a forerunner to religious perspectives. However, it is possible to view the Christian drama from a shamanic perspective. Thay is because shamanism is understood as an aspect of the anthropology of belief and culture. There is also some interest in shamanism in Western thought and mythology, with the life of Jesus as connected to the role and archetypal shaman, or healer, who has descended to the underworld and upper world, bringing forth a healing vision for others to follow.
It is an unorthodox view of the dogma of Christianity favoring the continually crumbling away of the content of the Faith. Even the most benighted layman knows the personality of Jesus, a man and a God at the same time and also an enigma. “In my view one would be well advised to apply the papal dictum: Let be as it is, or not be at all” CG Jung. I know of Circe in the Iliad as the sorceress turning men into pigs. Or perhaps Carlos Castaneda successful Ph.D. in the 60’s opening the way to today's shapeshifting heroes. In the words of Don Juan: “Besides seeing is contrary to sorcery. Seeing makes one realize the unimportance of it all that is the unimportance of everything”. ‘A separate reality’ CC. Compare with:
“I am He who exists from the Undivided… It is I who am the light… I am the All. Everything came from Me, and Everything extends unto Me. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Part the stone, and you will find Me”. - Gospel of Thomas.
I went through a stage of reading various writings by Carlos Casteneda. I found them fairly inspirational for thinking about the nature of perception. There is speculation that they may be fiction more than anything else, but fiction can also be a source of wisdom. I also find that the link between shamanistic thinking and quantum physics, as suggested by Frank Alan Wolfe interesting. It does seem that the mystics and esoteric traditions see aspects which show parallels between religion and some findings within quantum physics in the understanding of the nature of reality.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: September 14th, 2022, 3:12 am I am personally unimpressed by faith in that which is impossible to prove. Anyone can make unproven assertions.
Indeed. But this is a philosophy forum, and in a philosophical context, nearly everything is "impossible to prove". [This is true for a scientific context too.] So we philosophers have a simple, pragmatic and practical choice: either we do not (because we cannot) pursue our intellectual and philosophical curiosity, or we make "unproven assertions" — sometimes we call them axioms, 'guesses' or 'assumptions' — on which to base our unproven and unfounded musings.

In these terms, faith ("in that which is impossible to prove") is one of our only allies, wouldn't you say? 🙂
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by The Beast »

Credibility is a belief
Indeed. But this is a philosophy forum, and in a philosophical context, nearly everything is "impossible to prove"
It was Physics Nobel prize winner Brian Josephson who said: “Anything goes among the physics community (cosmic wormholes, time travel…), just as long as it keeps its distance from anything mystical or New Ageist” He said it in correlation to a position he said it was “pathological disbelief”
Jack said: I found them fairly inspirational for thinking about the nature of perception.(cc) There is speculation that they may be fiction more than anything else, but fiction can also be a source of wisdom. I also find that the link between shamanistic thinking and quantum physics,
Josephson cowrote a science paper titled ‘perceptual experiments and language theories’ It is interesting from the view of my previous post.
Is there a relationship between a fraudulent personality and the ideas of the unimportance of everything and its connection to nihilism? How does it compare to a real belief?
Curiously, A group of Josephson creation is the mind-matter unification project which is relevant in the Gospel of Thomas paragraph.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by JackDaydream »

EricPH wrote: September 14th, 2022, 1:14 am The greatest miracle is the creation of the universe and life. If God can create life from no life, then he has the power to raise the dead, heal the sick and walk on water.

Every other miracle is minor compared to creation. God is a profound mystery, but I have no need to think in terms of Gnosticism or Mysticism.
The idea of magic ranges from the idea of the supernatural to the idea of the 'magic' of creation expressed by Richard Dawkins. I will admit that I have struggled with the extremes. I was brought up as a Catholic, believing in the literal resurrection of the dead. I have read so many different interpretations that I really don't know how to understand the story. I have also read David Hume's critique of miracles. It is hard to know what is possible in going beyond the laws of nature. It is hard to know how much is about human beings and fabrication of the mythical imagination and I have found this an extremely difficult area in philosophy, having spent a lot of time wondering about life after death, and if it exists, whether it would be physical. I look to philosophy for disentangling the discrepancies between religion and science.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by JackDaydream »

Sy Borg wrote: September 14th, 2022, 3:12 am I am personally unimpressed by faith in that which is impossible to prove. Anyone can make unproven assertions.

Religious experiences are what happens when people who believe have peak experiences. Due to the religious tendency to anthropomorphise the forces of nature, the wonder aspects of peak experiences are interpreted as personified, as perceived through the distorting and narrowly anthropocentric filter of theism.
It can be hard to stand back from the peak experiences of religion, without seeing it simply from the perspective of theism. That is why I find Jung's approach because it does not dismiss religious experiences but looks from a wider perspective. It is a fine line with some seeing in a concrete religious fundamentalism and others going towards a perspective of scientific fundamentalism. In many ways, the symbolic or mythical aspects of religious experiences may be what makes them profound.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by JackDaydream »

The Beast wrote: September 14th, 2022, 11:12 am Credibility is a belief
Indeed. But this is a philosophy forum, and in a philosophical context, nearly everything is "impossible to prove"
It was Physics Nobel prize winner Brian Josephson who said: “Anything goes among the physics community (cosmic wormholes, time travel…), just as long as it keeps its distance from anything mystical or New Ageist” He said it in correlation to a position he said it was “pathological disbelief”
Jack said: I found them fairly inspirational for thinking about the nature of perception.(cc) There is speculation that they may be fiction more than anything else, but fiction can also be a source of wisdom. I also find that the link between shamanistic thinking and quantum physics,
Josephson cowrote a science paper titled ‘perceptual experiments and language theories’ It is interesting from the view of my previous post.
Is there a relationship between a fraudulent personality and the ideas of the unimportance of everything and its connection to nihilism? How does it compare to a real belief?
Curiously, A group of Josephson creation is the mind-matter unification project which is relevant in the Gospel of Thomas paragraph.
If anything, what quantum physics may have done is to break down the mechanistic model of the Newtonian- Cartesian worldview. However, the understanding of 'everything' is probably to be far away even with so much science. This may be important to recognise because if a person could know everything it would almost be a form of omnipotence. There is a plurality of perspectives, including the arts as well as the sciences. Some literal interpretations of a scientific nature may be a way of trying to formulate a religious perspectives on the basis of the methodology of Western science. What the Gnostic Gospels may signify is the importance of the symbolic aspects of existence, which may be more of an understanding based on the artistic imagination.
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Re: Gnosticism, Mysticism and the Idea or Imagining of 'God': How May Religious Experience be Understood?

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 14th, 2022, 9:58 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 14th, 2022, 3:12 am I am personally unimpressed by faith in that which is impossible to prove. Anyone can make unproven assertions.
Indeed. But this is a philosophy forum, and in a philosophical context, nearly everything is "impossible to prove". [This is true for a scientific context too.]
It was never, to begin with, the function of science to prove anything.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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