The way to approach an understanding of God

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Hereandnow wrote: September 8th, 2022, 5:37 pm God is as useful a concept as can be made sense of, and I don't mean simply pragmatic sense, the kind that Dewey and others might defend: a concept with utility for those living in wretched conditions. I mean sense as a descriptive term of what it is that lies before us in philosophical inquiry about foundational metaphysics. But is metaphysics merely theoretical?

Stevie quoted St. John saying "God's being cannot be grasped by the intellect, appetite, imagination, or any other sense; nor can it be known in this life." Is this true? god cannot be known in this life? And then this, "The most that can be felt and tasted of God in this life is infinitely distant from God and the pure possession of him." Infinitely distant? This raises the question of infinity, does it not? How can this notion be sensibly presented and not be nonsense? If it is not nonsense, and I think it is not, then there must be a presence of this possessed within experience, for if there is nothing whatever of infinity in experience, then the term has no meaning beyond an empty abstraction. The rub in looking for and understanding of God lies in the analytic of the things we can identify that constitute what validates the concept.

What, then, is this "infinite distance" St John talks about, and what is it in-the-world (experience, of you like) that makes talk about this kind of distance meaningful? Take infinite space. This is "given" to us, this intuition that reaches outward, and falls flat. By given intuition, I simply mean it is not a piece of fiction, nor is it reducible to mathematical concept. there is a palpable encounter with infinity in that when we exercise our intuition to grasp it, we encounter the impossible IN the world. Spatially, the world is impossible, and the same goes for time. When space and time (as intuitions) are deemed impossible, this invalidates at the level of basic level all talk of space and time. Certainly we can continue to talk about late buses and trees and clouds being up there and over there, and so on; but this is not philosophical talk about foundational metaphysics, and it is here that space and time fall apart. Like any concept, once a context is established, and time words are used in this context, sense is made. But philosophy has no interest at this level in its search for basic validation.

But have we not a least approached the problematic of God here? For infinty is not some alien wholly other, but is a palpable presence; it is IN the experience that encounters the world, and the "otherness" is conceived out of the fabric of experience itself. Infinity was NEVER apart from US. It has always already been a structural feature of experience.

this line of thinking can move on from here into a more revealing analysis. But this depends on if you have an interest to pursue it.
I think your approach relies too heavily on the use of the word "infinite" by someone who, I assume, had little or no knowledge of mathematics? I suggest that the word was used in an everyday sense, whereby "infinite distance" is merely an exaggeration meaning "especially distant". And so on.

Yes, there is much to be thought and said about God, but we will not find Her by quibbling about infinity.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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The Beast wrote
“Inquiry into the meaning and substance of God begins here, in the above. This is prior to faith and belief”.

This inquiry is in the form of ideas and Ideas are passive, they possess no causal power. Here is the idea of the above and the below. One can only find freedom and indeterminacy in the equation of logic and in the experience of the inquiry of the above. Instead, why not search for something in the objects to encounter the understanding in the below. As above so is below. I can only make the assertion that I exist.
There is a lot in this. Ideas are passive? How so? I think of doing my taxes, then I do my taxes. Doesn't seem passive to me at all. In fact, I can't think of anything less so: Every perception I have is carried by thought. I "know" the brakes in my car are bad, and I know that trees don't quote Shakespeare, and knowledge like this precedes implicitly everything I encounter. If it is right that, as you say, "as above so is below" you still assume the "above" as do I. the question goes to bringing above and below into a comprehensive idea, and this goes to the eternity IN the finite.

How so? Consider that infinity is generally understood as a property of time and space, and these are intuitively accessible, that is, the intuitive reaching outward into space or backward into time and facing the impossible. But consider that these intuitive events are not about an abstract infinity. They are received as events in consciousness, and so their analyses are to be found in some abstract theory in mathematics or logic. It is the event itself that gives us infinity.

Then, is there any other way we encounter the world in which infinity as an intuition can be discovered? Yes, in ontology, the "what is being" questions. Beings, that is, dogs, cats and black holes, and so on; everything: what does it mean that they "are"? Here is an idea: the intuitive "jolt" of the impossibility of infinite space and time is also there in Being itself. Realizing this puts the matter of infinity IN the fabric of the world, so to speak, as a direct encounter, this essential "indeterminacy' of all things.

God is a term reducible, I argue, to the foundational indeterminacy of the world, but indeterminacy means nothing unless it is about meaning, and this leads the inquirer to ask about meaning, and most poignantly, ethics and aesthetics. The issue of the foundational indeterminacy of the human condition vis a vis God is ALL about the metaethical/metaaesthetic questions of human valuing and affectivity. But, as you say, the "meta" of metaethics is not to be considered as a "below" of our affairs. The above is, and must be, IN the below, thereby dismissing all such talk.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Pattern-chaser wrote
I think your approach relies too heavily on the use of the word "infinite" by someone who, I assume, had little or no knowledge of mathematics? I suggest that the word was used in an everyday sense, whereby "infinite distance" is merely an exaggeration meaning "especially distant". And so on.

Yes, there is much to be thought and said about God, but we will not find Her by quibbling about infinity.
Infinity is just the beginning. Talk about infinity is meant only to open a door, because infinity is no fiction, yet it is most certainly the stuff of metaphysics, and God is a metaphysical concept. I will cut to the chase, then: the illusion we live in is the one created by language that divides the world into the finite and infinity. There is no such division in the world, and everything is metaphsyics. All we call finite is metaphysical.

But to show this to be the case, doors have to open. It has to be shown that in the finite there is no sustainable division.

What do we mean by God that is not part of mere common conception, but is really "there"? That is, what do you get when you reduce God to only what is in the structure and content of what is in the world?
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Hereandnow wrote: September 9th, 2022, 8:34 pm
The Beast wrote
“Inquiry into the meaning and substance of God begins here, in the above. This is prior to faith and belief”.

This inquiry is in the form of ideas and Ideas are passive, they possess no causal power. Here is the idea of the above and the below. One can only find freedom and indeterminacy in the equation of logic and in the experience of the inquiry of the above. Instead, why not search for something in the objects to encounter the understanding in the below. As above so is below. I can only make the assertion that I exist.
There is a lot in this. Ideas are passive? How so? I think of doing my taxes, then I do my taxes. Doesn't seem passive to me at all. In fact, I can't think of anything less so: Every perception I have is carried by thought. I "know" the brakes in my car are bad, and I know that trees don't quote Shakespeare, and knowledge like this precedes implicitly everything I encounter. If it is right that, as you say, "as above so is below" you still assume the "above" as do I. the question goes to bringing above and below into a comprehensive idea, and this goes to the eternity IN the finite.

How so? Consider that infinity is generally understood as a property of time and space, and these are intuitively accessible, that is, the intuitive reaching outward into space or backward into time and facing the impossible. But consider that these intuitive events are not about an abstract infinity. They are received as events in consciousness, and so their analyses are to be found in some abstract theory in mathematics or logic. It is the event itself that gives us infinity.

Then, is there any other way we encounter the world in which infinity as an intuition can be discovered? Yes, in ontology, the "what is being" questions. Beings, that is, dogs, cats and black holes, and so on; everything: what does it mean that they "are"? Here is an idea: the intuitive "jolt" of the impossibility of infinite space and time is also there in Being itself. Realizing this puts the matter of infinity IN the fabric of the world, so to speak, as a direct encounter, this essential "indeterminacy' of all things.

God is a term reducible, I argue, to the foundational indeterminacy of the world, but indeterminacy means nothing unless it is about meaning, and this leads the inquirer to ask about meaning, and most poignantly, ethics and aesthetics. The issue of the foundational indeterminacy of the human condition vis a vis God is ALL about the metaethical/metaaesthetic questions of human valuing and affectivity. But, as you say, the "meta" of metaethics is not to be considered as a "below" of our affairs. The above is, and must be, IN the below, thereby dismissing all such talk.
Where are my choices?
I am not Prophet, and I don’t walk on water. I am no King or dictator seeing my words becoming my will. I can not make the dog do anything unless I bribe him with food. In my understanding another choice will be a Nietzschean futuristic dystopia. How about a quantum superimposition of states with its ontology. As such every human being and if you are a liberal every sentient being in a superimposition state with the Above. I might go as far as words are a prelude to action. If words of anger, then what follows is violence. Temper, temper.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Pattern-chaser wrote: I think your approach relies too heavily on the use of the word "infinite" by someone who, I assume, had little or no knowledge of mathematics? I suggest that the word was used in an everyday sense, whereby "infinite distance" is merely an exaggeration meaning "especially distant". And so on.

Yes, there is much to be thought and said about God, but we will not find Her by quibbling about infinity.
Hereandnow wrote: September 9th, 2022, 11:00 pm Infinity is just the beginning. Talk about infinity is meant only to open a door, because infinity is no fiction, yet it is most certainly the stuff of metaphysics...
Yes, infinity is no fiction, yet it is most certainly the stuff of ... mathematics. It's quite abstract maths, as these things go, and perhaps it can/could usefully be considered within the paradigm of metaphysics, but infinity is, at the core, a mathematical concept, I think.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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The Beast wrote

Where are my choices?
I am not Prophet, and I don’t walk on water. I am no King or dictator seeing my words becoming my will. I can not make the dog do anything unless I bribe him with food. In my understanding another choice will be a Nietzschean futuristic dystopia. How about a quantum superimposition of states with its ontology. As such every human being and if you are a liberal every sentient being in a superimposition state with the Above. I might go as far as words are a prelude to action. If words of anger, then what follows is violence. Temper, temper.
Prophet? No. But your words are being asked to rule belief. All that is sought here is justified belief, which is the bottom line.


But then, superposition with the Above? Perhaps you have something in mind that is helpful. It sounds like you think we, our consciousness, is more than one state at once, and so as I write these words, I may be "somewhere else" in an undisclosed way, and I am in my core self "hidden" from my accessible empirical self. The Above in this is ....God? Levinas writes (quoting), "the true life is absent."

Interesting. How to confirm this and deliver God from a speculative theory about they way particles behave is the question. God and the soul are a more than behaving particles. What quantum thinking does is put a dent in physics, and while the paradigm shift (to talk like Kuhn) is pretty radical, for no one can explain it, it remains simply indeterminate even at the empirical level . Philosophy takes matters, all matters, to their end point, where they stop making sense, and then, witnessing this endpoint of indeterminacy of all things, FITS this indeterminacy into philosophical idea. Not unlike what Kant did with Pure Reason. He claimed that there was an endpoint where noumena simply had to be postulated; no choice. But then, he failed, being a good rationalist, to ask, how is it that noumena makes an appearance at all so that we simply HAD TO include it into an idea about the world at the basic level? The only answer to this question is: noumena must be a feature of the world, must be in the presence of things in their preanalytical state. This is where we begin looking for God if we want to move from quantum theory to existential affirmation. Granted, affirmation will not be a metaphysical Grand Narrative! But it will be a direct analytic of the "presence" of metaphysics of our existence.

The question then, is how to do this. Metaphysics has always been just confusing nonsense. But here, we look beneath the nonsense and ask what is the nonsense's counterpart in the real world such that what is said about the real world is nonsensical? We seek a method of making that impossible quasi-Kierkegaardian move to metaphysical affirmation IN the world, the ground for which issues from the world.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Pattern-chaser wrote
Yes, infinity is no fiction, yet it is most certainly the stuff of ... mathematics. It's quite abstract maths, as these things go, and perhaps it can/could usefully be considered within the paradigm of metaphysics, but infinity is, at the core, a mathematical concept, I think.
Regarding infinity being mathematical at its core, I would say, if you treat infinity as a concept in mathematics, then it is just this. But of you look up at a starry night and let your experience, not merely your discursive skills, to embrace the eternity that is an actual imposition before you, then you have left the context of mathematics, and entered one of the actual world, the phenomenon which is the existential counterpart to the mathematic if infinity. remember, with God, I am trying to move beyond the the conceptual construct: anything that has a designation in the actual world has an existential dimension beyond the concept.

And again, infinity is not the end we seek in this attempt to give a justification in actuality to the idea of God. Infinity is simply a first analytical step. I choose this because it is the most accessible to intuition. Time and space are intuitions of infinity before they are taken up conceptually, in some categorical context or other.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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KartikMishra wrote
In my opinion, When approaching an understanding of God, it is essential to remember that everyone approaches this subject differently. There are no right or wrong answers regarding religious beliefs, and what works for one person may not work for another. What is most important is that you find something within yourself that resonates with your faith, and from there, you can explore different avenues of thought and belief.
It is a lovely idea and I would agree if the matter were not taken up philosophically. but philosophy wants more than whatever-you-want-to-believe. It wants analysis. Is it true that there is nothing at all of substance in the objective argument that supports, demonstrates, justifies the essential religious claim? Putting Jesus, Mohammad et al aside, what is there in the world that calls for positing something to explain things metaphysical--at all?
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Hereandnow wrote: September 11th, 2022, 1:44 pm Infinity is simply a first analytical step.
When you say 'infinity', does that mean something has no beginning in time?
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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EricPH wrote
When you say 'infinity', does that mean something has no beginning in time?
I am trying to articulate a kind of intuitive frontier, the place where, apart from the entanglements of thought where abstractions are born (again, see Kant's Transcendental Dialectic for a n account of this, wherein he describes how reason without sensory intuition counter part is free to construct arguments out of empty possibilities). We are, if you will, intuitively hard wired to infinity, meaning when you face the world and engage it at the basic level (free of the presuppositions imposed by centuries of bad metaphysics) there is, to use a nice Deweian word, "an experience". Of course, Dewey didn't think like this, but he did make a big deal out of certain striking experience that are meaning laden, important, even revelatory, and it is the revelatory dimension of experience I am highlighting. Infinity as an authentic encounter with the world is revelatory. It is not "out there" impossibly distant from our apprehension, but an event "in here".

No beginning? But the question is begged: what is it to have a beginning? All beginnings I can imagine are contingent on other things. I begin to write these words, begin a college education, begin to drive my car, and so on. these are worlds of ideas, talk about driving and thinking and anything, in which beginnings make sense, as well as ends. Eternity is simply not a world like this at all. The concept of a beginning here is impossible, not that there isn't one.

So take the abstractions conceived in the theoretical mind of the scientist and the dogmatic mind of the traditional Christian (et al) and set them aside altogether, for we are in another territory, that of the foundational givenness of the world. It is an intuitive landscape we want to examine, instead fo the contrived and constructed assumptions of the modern "naturalistic" attitude.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Hereandnow wrote: September 12th, 2022, 9:30 am
No beginning? But the question is begged: what is it to have a beginning? All beginnings I can imagine are contingent on other things.
Using the word 'infinite' dodges the real question. Either something had no beginning, or something did not come from anything. Both options seem to require some kind of magic, and do not seem logical. So where is the truth?
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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EricPH wrote
Using the word 'infinite' dodges the real question. Either something had no beginning, or something did not come from anything. Both options seem to require some kind of magic, and do not seem logical. So where is the truth?
Then I would have to ask you, when we use the term 'infinity', what is it that we refer to? You could think of it as a mathematical concept, of course. this is something that works in equations, in theoretical contexts, but put this aside, for it also has another designation that is entirely different: it is an intuitive encounter, and not theoretically "distant" from the real world.

Truth is propositional, and there is no avoiding the propositional form explanations have to take. A very big issue for philosophy, and especially in analytic philosophy there is a striving for clarity and logic: so called "non-propositional truths" are dismissed because "intuitions" are vague and escape the boundaries of falsifiability. But it has to understood in the matter of inquiring about God and religion that this field of inquiry is precisely about just those "vague" intuitions. There is nothing vague about them if you suspend the desire to quantify. We are in Kierkegaard's world now, not Quine's or Wittgenstein's (though Witt was a huge fan of Kierkegaard).

The idea here is this: Approached as concept conceived out of the observational possibilities that ground empirical science, God is hopelessly misunderstood and dialectically disastrous, for the things that we encounter in the world in this theoretical milieu are literally without a ground for all this approach can do is conceive quantitatively,in terms beginnings and ends and what lies between, in terms categorical determinacy that acknowledges truth in established paradigms. God is an empirical concept when one constructs one out of the familiar, things like omniscience, omnipotence, the creator, the greatest possible being, and all the rest are conceived in just this way, but end up being just magnifications of something mundane, like intelligence and strength, and these are not what God is really about. God is really about, first and foremost, the foundational indeterminacy of our existence. "Magical" is simply pejorative. Here, we only look at what is there, in the midst of the analysis. Nothing more.

The question then is, how does one proceed starting with the premise of indeterminacy? Indeterminacy has to be examined.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Hereandnow wrote: September 12th, 2022, 11:43 am Then I would have to ask you, when we use the term 'infinity', what is it that we refer to? You could think of it as a mathematical concept, of course. this is something that works in equations, in theoretical contexts, but put this aside, for it also has another designation that is entirely different: it is an intuitive encounter, and not theoretically "distant" from the real world.
The informal and everyday use of "infinity" doesn't really mean "infinity". Neither the word, nor its everyday meaning, are at all precisely defined. In informal and everyday terms, that's fine; it doesn't matter at all. Everyday conversation is riddled with such terms. But this is a philosophy forum, and you are attempting to present a reasonably complex argument by including as a core concept the nebulous everyday usage of 'infinity'.

The result seems to be that your argument is difficult to follow, never mind to discuss.
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Pattern-chaser wrote: September 12th, 2022, 11:56 am Neither the word, nor its everyday meaning, are at all precisely defined.
That's garbled; sorry. It should say something more like "In everyday usage, neither the word, nor the meaning it carries, are precisely defined."
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Re: The way to approach an understanding of God

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Hume also recommended to his friends buying slave plantations. I imagine that if you live long enough the odds are in favor of anything happening. As such the turritopsis dohrnil as an immortal being falls within the odds of being eating before it can live much. It is being held and dissected in search of the immortality secrets not involving the not remembering. In condensed matter physics, the time crystal is a reality. It violates the second law of thermodynamics that is: “motion without energy”. These are examples of reality as is and the exploration by the mind of its intuitions and expanding them in a real becoming making our reality an immortal realm of immortal substance. What is needed are some God-given virtues to do the work. As demi-gods we will acquire an understanding of God and will spread its Spirit to many other planets with concepts like infinity within infinity.
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