Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.
Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
No one in history has ever been verified to have suffered such treatment as; hanging on a cross, receiving a mercy sword wound to end life; have all the appearance of being dead, then buried in a tomb only to reappear in the flesh 3 days later with the holes in his hands and feet.
And a second hand account of such a thing is not evidence that such a thing happened.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
Some also like to pretend that people never believed in the literal miracle but always saw this as allegory.Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.
When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.
Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
I have no time for such delusion.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
It seems that the "same God" never suspends the laws of nature for any reason.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 12:11 am The same God who made the laws of nature can suspend them at will.
By rising from the dead, Christ taught us to hope for our own immortal lives with Him, as the apostle Peter tells us in his first epistle.
Peter was either deluded, a liar, or meant it as an allegory.
Either way his testimony is empty headed nonsense.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
The obvious implication of this statement is that nothing happens naturally, that there are no natural laws, just a conjunction of events produced by the capricious mind of a deity or many deities. Since anything goes, it is useless to even think of the consistency and coherence of any plan, nor of a human response to it. It also becomes ridiculous that the deity (or deities) fooled everyone into thinking that there can be rules and consequences for one's actions. Nothing obliges the deity, so it is useless to have any expectations.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 12:11 am The same God who made the laws of nature can suspend them at will.
By rising from the dead, Christ taught us to hope for our own immortal lives with Him, as the apostle Peter tells us in his first epistle.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
The first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.
When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.
Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
Not at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pmThe first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.
When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.
Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
Exactly what would that be faith in?Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pmNot at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pmThe first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.
When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.
Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
Well, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pmExactly what would that be faith in?Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pmNot at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pmThe first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.
When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.
Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
Men need to look to the future to be better than the status quo, and therefore men plan to seek food, shelter, and safety. The ubiquitous need for a secure future is facilitated by hope and faith in the future. Not only do men seek patterns of causes and effects we also need faith that such patterns are to be found.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pmExactly what would that be faith in?Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pmNot at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pmThe first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.
When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.
Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
Deities are personifications of the patterns of natural order. Perhaps you can envisage these personifications of pattern if you know a little of the Greek and Roman polytheistic pantheons. Monotheism combines all of nature qua order and pattern in one supreme and unique deity.
A reasonable faith recognises the psychological need for faith and places the object of faith within the human psyche.We may personify the object of faith with impunity only as long as we don't idolise our feeble human conceptualisations.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
You could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 3:09 amWell, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pmExactly what would that be faith in?Belindi wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pmNot at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pm
The first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
My guess is that you are not a scholar of religion. Not everything the Gospels say Jesus said and did is really what Jesus did say and do. People did once believe in miracles but now people don't believe in miracles.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 12:20 pmYou could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 3:09 amWell, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?
You do Christianity no favours by harnessing Christianity to a medieval perspective on what is possible.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
You cannot speak for all Christendom. How do you personally know that the gospels lie? Did you know Jesus?Belindi wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 3:53 pmMy guess is that you are not a scholar of religion. Not everything the Gospels say Jesus said and did is really what Jesus did say and do. People did once believe in miracles but now people don't believe in miracles.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 12:20 pmYou could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.
You do Christianity no favours by harnessing Christianity to a medieval perspective on what is possible.
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
No... Apparently, YOU couldn't, but someone else with a different worldview definitely could.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 12:20 pmYou could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 3:09 amWell, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?
It's not a lie to teach religious doctrines. The Gospels are edited by clever editors for the purpose of religious teachings to people of a time long ago. Modern needs have changed and we now need a reasonable faith that is not supernatural.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 6:29 pmYou cannot speak for all Christendom. How do you personally know that the gospels lie? Did you know Jesus?Belindi wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 3:53 pmMy guess is that you are not a scholar of religion. Not everything the Gospels say Jesus said and did is really what Jesus did say and do. People did once believe in miracles but now people don't believe in miracles.Charlemagne wrote: ↑December 13th, 2022, 12:20 pmYou could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.
You do Christianity no favours by harnessing Christianity to a medieval perspective on what is possible.
In order to fashion a reasonable faith we need the Gospels as serious literature and traditional carriers of morality. If we are to understand the life of Jesus of Nazareth we need to know what, among all the material in the Gospels, he probably said and what he probably did not say.
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