Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Belindi »

When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.

When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.

Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7094
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Sculptor1 »

People do not come back to life.
No one in history has ever been verified to have suffered such treatment as; hanging on a cross, receiving a mercy sword wound to end life; have all the appearance of being dead, then buried in a tomb only to reappear in the flesh 3 days later with the holes in his hands and feet.

And a second hand account of such a thing is not evidence that such a thing happened.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.
David Hume
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7094
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.

When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.

Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
Some also like to pretend that people never believed in the literal miracle but always saw this as allegory.
I have no time for such delusion.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7094
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 12:11 am The same God who made the laws of nature can suspend them at will.

By rising from the dead, Christ taught us to hope for our own immortal lives with Him, as the apostle Peter tells us in his first epistle.
It seems that the "same God" never suspends the laws of nature for any reason.

Peter was either deluded, a liar, or meant it as an allegory.
Either way his testimony is empty headed nonsense.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 12:11 am The same God who made the laws of nature can suspend them at will.

By rising from the dead, Christ taught us to hope for our own immortal lives with Him, as the apostle Peter tells us in his first epistle.
The obvious implication of this statement is that nothing happens naturally, that there are no natural laws, just a conjunction of events produced by the capricious mind of a deity or many deities. Since anything goes, it is useless to even think of the consistency and coherence of any plan, nor of a human response to it. It also becomes ridiculous that the deity (or deities) fooled everyone into thinking that there can be rules and consequences for one's actions. Nothing obliges the deity, so it is useless to have any expectations.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Charlemagne
Posts: 298
Joined: July 18th, 2014, 7:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Chesterton
Location: Lubbock, Texas

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Charlemagne »

Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.

When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.

Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
The first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Belindi »

Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.

When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.

Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
The first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.
Not at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.
Charlemagne
Posts: 298
Joined: July 18th, 2014, 7:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Chesterton
Location: Lubbock, Texas

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Charlemagne »

Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pm
Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.

When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.

Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
The first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.
Not at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.
Exactly what would that be faith in?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by LuckyR »

Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pm
Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.

When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.

Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
The first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.
Not at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.
Exactly what would that be faith in?
Well, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Belindi »

Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pm
Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:03 am When Jesus of Nazareth died his body decayed, was eaten by an animal, or was burned. Probably dessicated and decayed in a tomb.

When Jesus Christ of faith died His body was resurrected to life.

Educated modern people have difficulty with the Christ narrative which includes miracles such as resurrection of the body. One way to retain the myth, which is still a useful myth, is to view the Resurrection event as allegorical. The allegorical interpretation is that Jesus greatly influenced the subsequent course of history. The life and work of Jesus happened and cannot be un-happened. You can claim the latter for any life including the life of a sparrow.
The first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.
Not at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.
Exactly what would that be faith in?
Men need to look to the future to be better than the status quo, and therefore men plan to seek food, shelter, and safety. The ubiquitous need for a secure future is facilitated by hope and faith in the future. Not only do men seek patterns of causes and effects we also need faith that such patterns are to be found.
Deities are personifications of the patterns of natural order. Perhaps you can envisage these personifications of pattern if you know a little of the Greek and Roman polytheistic pantheons. Monotheism combines all of nature qua order and pattern in one supreme and unique deity.

A reasonable faith recognises the psychological need for faith and places the object of faith within the human psyche.We may personify the object of faith with impunity only as long as we don't idolise our feeble human conceptualisations.
Charlemagne
Posts: 298
Joined: July 18th, 2014, 7:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Chesterton
Location: Lubbock, Texas

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Charlemagne »

LuckyR wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:09 am
Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pm
Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 1:03 pm

The first thing to remember is that not all "educated modern people" are atheists. Only if you are already an atheist can you discount the possibility of God's miracles. So atheism, not recognizing the possibility of God, is really the barrier to recognizing the possibility of miracles.
Not at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.
Exactly what would that be faith in?
Well, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?
You could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Belindi »

Charlemagne wrote: December 13th, 2022, 12:20 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:09 am
Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pm
Not at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.
Exactly what would that be faith in?
Well, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?
You could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.
My guess is that you are not a scholar of religion. Not everything the Gospels say Jesus said and did is really what Jesus did say and do. People did once believe in miracles but now people don't believe in miracles.

You do Christianity no favours by harnessing Christianity to a medieval perspective on what is possible.
Charlemagne
Posts: 298
Joined: July 18th, 2014, 7:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Chesterton
Location: Lubbock, Texas

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Charlemagne »

Belindi wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:53 pm
Charlemagne wrote: December 13th, 2022, 12:20 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:09 am
Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pm

Exactly what would that be faith in?
Well, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?
You could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.
My guess is that you are not a scholar of religion. Not everything the Gospels say Jesus said and did is really what Jesus did say and do. People did once believe in miracles but now people don't believe in miracles.

You do Christianity no favours by harnessing Christianity to a medieval perspective on what is possible.
You cannot speak for all Christendom. How do you personally know that the gospels lie? Did you know Jesus?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by LuckyR »

Charlemagne wrote: December 13th, 2022, 12:20 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:09 am
Charlemagne wrote: December 12th, 2022, 8:23 pm
Belindi wrote: December 12th, 2022, 4:22 pm
Not at all! You can have a reasonable faith which does not include supernatural beings or their miracles.
Exactly what would that be faith in?
Well, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?
You could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.
No... Apparently, YOU couldn't, but someone else with a different worldview definitely could.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Belindi »

Charlemagne wrote: December 13th, 2022, 6:29 pm
Belindi wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:53 pm
Charlemagne wrote: December 13th, 2022, 12:20 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:09 am

Well, what if someone followed Jesus here on Earth, believed that his teachings on behavior were perfect, but discounted all of the supernatural references?
You could not believe his teachings on behavior were correct and then despise his own behavior as a teacher and performer of miracles.
My guess is that you are not a scholar of religion. Not everything the Gospels say Jesus said and did is really what Jesus did say and do. People did once believe in miracles but now people don't believe in miracles.

You do Christianity no favours by harnessing Christianity to a medieval perspective on what is possible.
You cannot speak for all Christendom. How do you personally know that the gospels lie? Did you know Jesus?
It's not a lie to teach religious doctrines. The Gospels are edited by clever editors for the purpose of religious teachings to people of a time long ago. Modern needs have changed and we now need a reasonable faith that is not supernatural.

In order to fashion a reasonable faith we need the Gospels as serious literature and traditional carriers of morality. If we are to understand the life of Jesus of Nazareth we need to know what, among all the material in the Gospels, he probably said and what he probably did not say.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021