Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Gertie
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Gertie »

Belindi
It's not a lie to teach religious doctrines. The Gospels are edited by clever editors for the purpose of religious teachings to people of a time long ago. Modern needs have changed and we now need a reasonable faith that is not supernatural.

In order to fashion a reasonable faith we need the Gospels as serious literature and traditional carriers of morality. If we are to understand the life of Jesus of Nazareth we need to know what, among all the material in the Gospels, he probably said and what he probably did not say.


I agree the quotes you picked out of Jesus predicting his death and resurrection are made up afterwards, as his followers try to rationalise what his death and failed apocalyptic prophecy might mean.  It must be hard to abandon your life, family, work - everything, to follow someone preaching the end of the world as you know it, and salvation for you, that's a huge investment.  The resurrection would make a different type of sense of Jesus's message for them. It's speculated other sayings of Jesus in Mathew and Luke are taken from another document (collected  oral traditions) called 'Q', lost now.  Either way, things like parables would be memorable and repeated I think, and the gist of sermons. 

I'd say we can learn from the moral teachings as presented, like we can learn from anyone, without invoking 'faith'.  What would it be faith in?  That his moral teachings  make sense or resonate with us, give life meaning and purpose?  Without all the supernatural religious stuff, that's something we work out, or just live our meaning and purpose day to day, for ourselves, and are influenced by parents and all sorts of sources.  It would be odd to say I have faith in Peter Singer for example, because I largely agree with his moral views and admire how he walks his talk.  That's not what people mean when they say they have faith in Jesus, and it's not what the gospel writers meant.  It's analogous to a retreating god of the gaps.
If the old fashioned stories help you through life they are good for you. Myths and allegories can be great and true.
Right, myths and archetypes become myths and archetypes because they resonate.
Belindi
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Belindi »

Ecurb wrote: December 21st, 2022, 6:14 pm
Belindi wrote: December 21st, 2022, 4:05 pm
If the old fashioned stories help you through life they are good for you. Myths and allegories can be great and true.

Religion gets a bad reputation when the faithful persist in preaching myths and allegories as if they are historically or scientifically real. I understand that priests earn their livings preaching to the majority who don't interpret myths and allegories. Those of us who do interpret mythical , allegorical, and anthropological content are not catered for in most churches that I know of.
Santa Claus is more fun for children when they believe in him. What does it mean to "believe"? I'm not sure -- but I think it often means to suspend disbelief; to enjoy the ride. I get the impression that many of the atheists on this forum are unable to do that. They (like, perhaps, the most orthodox of Fundamentalists) are obsessed with the historicaL truth (or untruth) of the stories. I don't think children who "believe in" Santa Claus think that way. Instead, they accept the story as a story, and are willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of the story.

The past no longer "exists". What exists are memories, and stories about the past. We all invent a past that conforms to our notions and prejudices. As our prejudices have leaned in on "science", we have tried to make history more scientific. We know Herodotus invented speeches from the past, claiming that the famous speaker probably would have said something like the invented speech. Probably Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did the same. Maybe Boswell did. Perhaps they came close to the truth, though. And even if they didn't, is that so terrible?

G.K. Chesterton (one of my favorite authors -- I just quoted a poem of his in another thread) wrote biographies of Thomas Acquinas abnd Francis of Assissi. He didn't attempt to ferret out the scientific facts about their lives. Instead, he reported on the mythical events, and tried to suss out their meaning and importance. Who cares what the real Thomas or Francis did? The mythical Thomas and Francis are far more important, as is the mythical Jesus.
The mythical Jesus is I agree far more important. The mythic Jesus will survive the departure of supernaturalism.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by LuckyR »

Ecurb wrote: December 21st, 2022, 6:14 pm
Belindi wrote: December 21st, 2022, 4:05 pm
If the old fashioned stories help you through life they are good for you. Myths and allegories can be great and true.

Religion gets a bad reputation when the faithful persist in preaching myths and allegories as if they are historically or scientifically real. I understand that priests earn their livings preaching to the majority who don't interpret myths and allegories. Those of us who do interpret mythical , allegorical, and anthropological content are not catered for in most churches that I know of.
Santa Claus is more fun for children when they believe in him. What does it mean to "believe"? I'm not sure -- but I think it often means to suspend disbelief; to enjoy the ride. I get the impression that many of the atheists on this forum are unable to do that. They (like, perhaps, the most orthodox of Fundamentalists) are obsessed with the historicaL truth (or untruth) of the stories. I don't think children who "believe in" Santa Claus think that way. Instead, they accept the story as a story, and are willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of the story.

The past no longer "exists". What exists are memories, and stories about the past. We all invent a past that conforms to our notions and prejudices. As our prejudices have leaned in on "science", we have tried to make history more scientific. We know Herodotus invented speeches from the past, claiming that the famous speaker probably would have said something like the invented speech. Probably Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did the same. Maybe Boswell did. Perhaps they came close to the truth, though. And even if they didn't, is that so terrible?

G.K. Chesterton (one of my favorite authors -- I just quoted a poem of his in another thread) wrote biographies of Thomas Acquinas abnd Francis of Assissi. He didn't attempt to ferret out the scientific facts about their lives. Instead, he reported on the mythical events, and tried to suss out their meaning and importance. Who cares what the real Thomas or Francis did? The mythical Thomas and Francis are far more important, as is the mythical Jesus.
Really? I would say that the majority of atheists on the Forum are perfectly capable and comfortable with the notion that Iron Age religions can be interesting, important and helpful mythology not dissimilar to your example of Santa Claus for children.
"As usual... it depends."
Ecurb
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Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by Ecurb »

LuckyR wrote: December 24th, 2022, 5:08 am

Really? I would say that the majority of atheists on the Forum are perfectly capable and comfortable with the notion that Iron Age religions can be interesting, important and helpful mythology not dissimilar to your example of Santa Claus for children.
Yes, I'm sure you're right. It is only the minority that mock the religious by calling God a "sky daddy" and the religious "childish".
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LuckyR
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Re: Is the resurrection of Jesus false?

Post by LuckyR »

Ecurb wrote: December 24th, 2022, 10:57 am
LuckyR wrote: December 24th, 2022, 5:08 am

Really? I would say that the majority of atheists on the Forum are perfectly capable and comfortable with the notion that Iron Age religions can be interesting, important and helpful mythology not dissimilar to your example of Santa Claus for children.
Yes, I'm sure you're right. It is only the minority that mock the religious by calling God a "sky daddy" and the religious "childish".
How individuals handle having their comments dismissed out of hand will vary dramatically, I agree. But that reality is universal, not limited to a single group.
"As usual... it depends."
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