How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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JackDaydream
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How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by JackDaydream »

I am writing this thread because often in discussions there is a lack of clarity over who or what 'God' is conceptualized. Also, I have been reading 'Philosophy Now' (October/November 2022), which has a number of articles on the God in philosophy.

One writer, Benedict O'Connell, in an article, 'God and Humility' points to the limitation of knowledge about God.He says, 'In stating that "God exists", we are professing something that only a being like God, who is omniscient could know.' O'Connell draws upon the Medieval theologian, Saint Anselm of Canterbury, of God being 'ineffable, and the argument that the nature of God cannot be communicated.

One other aspect of exploration is the difference between a belief in a personal God who has an intimate relationship with individual human beings and of Deism. In 'Deism: Traditional & Contemporary', Robert Griffiths argues that, 'Deism is belief in the existence of a creator God who does not interfere in the universe, and in particular, in the lives of people.' He suggests that the potential audience attracted towards this philosophy position in the current time may be 'Christians and other religious people who are becoming confused or alienated by doctrinal disputes and are instead looking for a rationally simple "core" to their beliefs.'

The idea of God is a big topic, but I am trying to keep the outpost fairly short. As I am asking you about your view my own is, in summary, that the idea of God is about whatever source of life comes from, including mind and matter. However, I am not sure that this implies any disembodied being as such, separate from nature and emergent consciousness. The various images of God, as deities, are the symbolic ways of seeing the underlying nature of reality. Both theism, atheism are human constructs. I am not sure that the split between theism and deism works fully because it seems to split off the past from the ongoing processes of unfolding of consciousness and life experiences and interpretation of such experiences. Deism may work if it involves a God. What are your own thoughts on the concept of God?
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by JackDaydream »

Edit: The second to last sentence got lost. The sentence should read as deism may work if it involves a God as a presence outside of space and time, as a remote force. It would be like a 'divine' spark which sets off initial processes.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by Baby Augustine »

Confusion reigns over the whole question.
St. Thomas Aquinas once argued that since “what the substance of God is remains in excess of our intellect and therefore is unknown to us,” it logically implies that “the highest human knowledge of God is to know that one does not know God”

Now reason can say certain definite things by reason alone but the Infinity of God (in-finite meaning not with end) means we cannot define from the verb definire ‘set bounds to’ ) God
certain premises that are known either in themselves or can be known by philosophic investigation. These premises can be known by the pagan. Saint Thomas Aquinas explains:

The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature, and perfection supposes something that can be perfected. Nevertheless, there is nothing to prevent a man, who cannot grasp a proof, accepting, as a matter of faith, something which in itself is capable of being scientifically known and demonstrated.

Summa theologiae Ia, q. 2, a. 2, ad 1.

Saint Thomas Aquinas calls our natural knowledge of things the “preambles of faith” or the “presuppositions of faith” (cf. III Sent. d. 24, a. 3, sol. 1). The preambles or presuppositions of faith include the premises that God exists, that God is one, incorporeal, and intelligent. None of these facts pertain to the Gospel and they are not articles of the Faith

This question shows what the necessity and help it is that Jesus is the answer to what is God like? JOhn 14:9 He who has seen Me has seen the Father

Short Answer : God is revealed in Jesus, the Truth is a Person.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by Sy Borg »

The Earth is God, but an even greater deity created it and continues to shine energy down upon its creation.

Unlike many, I don't give credit some some darn humanoid phantasm from Middle Eastern Iron Age mythology. I give credit where it's due - this extraordinary planet of which we are all mere percolations of its surface. Earth and Sun did everything credited to anthropomorphic deities. Basically, we are trying to take credit for everything because we fail to truly see nature - the other percolations of the Earth. We humans have become huge and powerful, but we are still a system within these much larger and more powerful systems.

The true Son of Man is Donald Trump - always taking credit for things that others do, and claiming to be The Greatest. He is like a microcosm of immature humanity. The way humanity operates as a collective is distinctly Trumpian - full of ego, bluster, BS and self-aggrandisement. Hence our humanoid deities.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

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Sy Borg wrote: January 14th, 2023, 5:31 pm The Earth is God, but an even greater deity created it and continues to shine energy down upon its creation.

Unlike many, I don't give credit some some darn humanoid phantasm from Middle Eastern Iron Age mythology. I give credit where it's due - this extraordinary planet of which we are all mere percolations of its surface. Earth and Sun did everything credited to anthropomorphic deities. Basically, we are trying to take credit for everything because we fail to truly see nature - the other percolations of the Earth. We humans have become huge and powerful, but we are still a system within these much larger and more powerful systems.

The true Son of Man is Donald Trump - always taking credit for things that others do, and claiming to be The Greatest. He is like a microcosm of immature humanity. The way humanity operates as a collective is distinctly Trumpian - full of ego, bluster, BS and self-aggrandisement. Hence our humanoid deities.
I don't think that I ever really believed in a literal iron age mythological deity. Everyone is brought up with different pictures and probably the symbol with which I was most familiar was of Jesus on the Cross. However, Catholicism does have some strong images, including the idea of The Trinity and the Virgin Mary. This involves praying to Mary and other saints who are believed to be in heaven.

The emphasis on Nature, especially in the idea of Gaia may have replaced some of the religious images. There were also the pagan deities which were outlawed in Christendon. The Egyptian and Hindu gods were powerful symbols. They may be symbolic expressions of the numinous aspects of religious experience.

The one interesting exception in religions, if it is regarded as a religion is Buddhism. It does not have an actual belief in a deity, although there are some underlying similarities between the teachings of the Biuddha and Christ; especially the emphasis on compassion.

Apart from images of gods and God, the idea of God also involves an understanding of design in nature, and possibly human life. The idea which I find interesting is what Deepak Chopra describes as 'synchrodestiny' which is about underlying meaning in life meaning and pathways. It is a little different from Jung's idea of synchronicity, which is more about patterns perceived as opposed to actual destined purpose of synchrodestiny. Of course, it may be easier to see synchrodestiny when things are going well rather than in the face of tragedy and experience of extreme suffering.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by UniversalAlien »

So there I was content and peaceful in a perfect state of what you would call Nirvana.

God knows [pun intended] how long I was this way, probably forever.

But as hell would have it I got bored - Imagine how boring it can be being perfect and having no needs :?:

So one day I said "LET THERE BE LIGHT" :arrow:

Image

"AND THERE WAS LIGHT" :idea:

Yes it was kind of shocking - I knew I was powerful, but how powerful was yet to be seen.

Needless to say ideas then began to rush through my psyche {Psyche: you know like the so called mind Humans were deigned to have,
and sometimes do}.

So I developed the Matrix :arrow: Physical laws that would evolve with time {another one of my creations}
and what I thought would be my crowning achievement a living cell that would split, multiply and then evolve to a higher order :idea:
Now you understand so called "Evolution" :?:

Of course all this was speculative - Even I do not know where it will ultimately end up :?:

And the problems are many :arrow: Basically Humans you are now on your own - I tried setting things right in the past [remember
the Jesus experiment :?: } and this did not improve the defects in the Humanoid state.

So I leave you with one final bit of advice :arrow: Straighten out your problems on a World Wide basis or face the consequences :arrow:
What has so far been created can be undone and the experiment ended :!:

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
― Max Planck
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up to now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”
― Max Planck, The Universe in the Light of Modern Physics
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by Belindi »

God is all events that ever happened and ever can happen. Every event necessarily happened and could not have been otherwise than it was. If anyone wants to know God a bit better they have to learn why stuff happens as it does, and why people behave as they do.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: January 14th, 2023, 6:34 pm
Sy Borg wrote: January 14th, 2023, 5:31 pm The Earth is God, but an even greater deity created it and continues to shine energy down upon its creation.

Unlike many, I don't give credit some some darn humanoid phantasm from Middle Eastern Iron Age mythology. I give credit where it's due - this extraordinary planet of which we are all mere percolations of its surface. Earth and Sun did everything credited to anthropomorphic deities. Basically, we are trying to take credit for everything because we fail to truly see nature - the other percolations of the Earth. We humans have become huge and powerful, but we are still a system within these much larger and more powerful systems.

The true Son of Man is Donald Trump - always taking credit for things that others do, and claiming to be The Greatest. He is like a microcosm of immature humanity. The way humanity operates as a collective is distinctly Trumpian - full of ego, bluster, BS and self-aggrandisement. Hence our humanoid deities.
I don't think that I ever really believed in a literal iron age mythological deity. Everyone is brought up with different pictures and probably the symbol with which I was most familiar was of Jesus on the Cross. However, Catholicism does have some strong images, including the idea of The Trinity and the Virgin Mary. This involves praying to Mary and other saints who are believed to be in heaven.

The emphasis on Nature, especially in the idea of Gaia may have replaced some of the religious images. There were also the pagan deities which were outlawed in Christendon. The Egyptian and Hindu gods were powerful symbols. They may be symbolic expressions of the numinous aspects of religious experience.

The one interesting exception in religions, if it is regarded as a religion is Buddhism. It does not have an actual belief in a deity, although there are some underlying similarities between the teachings of the Biuddha and Christ; especially the emphasis on compassion.

Apart from images of gods and God, the idea of God also involves an understanding of design in nature, and possibly human life. The idea which I find interesting is what Deepak Chopra describes as 'synchrodestiny' which is about underlying meaning in life meaning and pathways. It is a little different from Jung's idea of synchronicity, which is more about patterns perceived as opposed to actual destined purpose of synchrodestiny. Of course, it may be easier to see synchrodestiny when things are going well rather than in the face of tragedy and experience of extreme suffering.
I disregard Gaia due to its association with new age romanticism. My view is based on direct logic.

That is, we are small variations on the surface of this planet, induced by the interaction of Sun's rays with Earth's chemistry. That's the situation stated baldly. The Earth and the Sun are everything to us, they have done everything for us. Indigenous people understood this because nothing stood between individuals and their environment, whereas modern humans have built protective physical and social barriers around themselves. This was needed because nature doesn't care if you live long or well. The only ones who care and you and your bonded others.

Do I worship the Earth and the Sun? Of course not. They don't need my worship or care, no more than you care about individual axons on your neurons. Worship is about the worshipper, not the worshipped. It is a biological hack, designed to induce dopamine and serotonin without substances.

Am I impressed by the Earth and Sun? Mightily so. Their scale and long term presence in reality are beyond the ken of this small surface percolation. I also appreciate that giant cosmic bodies don't care about us, so we can only look out for one another, hence humanity's distancing from nature. I expect that once humans have been bitten, scratched, poisoned and infected by other denizens of nature, they start to develop attitudes about them. Humans work to protect themselves, because no one wants to be eaten alive or have some giant worm living in their gut.

Thus, gods (or God) represent humanity as a whole, and humanity's relationships with other aspects of the world. When we worship gods or God, we worship the part of overall nature that is humanity, the part that "delivered them from evil", ie. from all those predators and bloody tapeworms and mozzies et al.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by JackDaydream »

UniversalAlien wrote: January 14th, 2023, 6:54 pm So there I was content and peaceful in a perfect state of what you would call Nirvana.

God knows [pun intended] how long I was this way, probably forever.

But as hell would have it I got bored - Imagine how boring it can be being perfect and having no needs :?:

So one day I said "LET THERE BE LIGHT" :arrow:

Image

"AND THERE WAS LIGHT" :idea:

Yes it was kind of shocking - I knew I was powerful, but how powerful was yet to be seen.

Needless to say ideas then began to rush through my psyche {Psyche: you know like the so called mind Humans were deigned to have,
and sometimes do}.

So I developed the Matrix :arrow: Physical laws that would evolve with time {another one of my creations}
and what I thought would be my crowning achievement a living cell that would split, multiply and then evolve to a higher order :idea:
Now you understand so called "Evolution" :?:

Of course all this was speculative - Even I do not know where it will ultimately end up :?:

And the problems are many :arrow: Basically Humans you are now on your own - I tried setting things right in the past [remember
the Jesus experiment :?: } and this did not improve the defects in the Humanoid state.

So I leave you with one final bit of advice :arrow: Straighten out your problems on a World Wide basis or face the consequences :arrow:
What has so far been created can be undone and the experiment ended :!:

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
― Max Planck
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up to now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”
― Max Planck, The Universe in the Light of Modern Physics
What is interesting in your post is both the understanding of God doing an experiment through the creation. Your take involves God as an all-powerful character, setting things into motion. This idea is explored by Carl Jung in his, 'Answer to Job' in which he raises the question as to whether 'God' is evolving through the Judaeo- Christian drama, especially in the Old Testament interaction between Jahweh and human beings. However, Jung is speaking of the image of God, with the view that the evolution of this is the closest one can get to an understanding of any underlying reality behind the notion of 'God'.

As for the idea of light and dark, it is about the recognition of both natural laws and the split into duality. In Christianity it is put into the grand drama of God vs Satan. There is the interestin parallel with the Taosist understanding of God, which rather than seeing the overall battle between good and evil, after the fall of the angel, Liucifer, sees good and evil as part of the overall processes. Within Christianity there is an emphasis on the two principles as being in a dramatic battle against Satan. This is different from a perspective which sees 'evil' as a necessary force in the evolutionary pathway.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by JackDaydream »

Belindi wrote: January 14th, 2023, 7:32 pm God is all events that ever happened and ever can happen. Every event necessarily happened and could not have been otherwise than it was. If anyone wants to know God a bit better they have to learn why stuff happens as it does, and why people behave as they do.
The perspective which you offer is one of immanence. I once came across an author Vera Stanley Alder who described human beings as 'cells of God's consciousness'. To describe everything as God may be seen as a metaphorical understanding. Many see this as being a reason to dismiss the idea of God and religious perspectives. However, the one thing which may be overlooked is the power of metaphor and symbolism as an important part of human thinking, even within the scientific imagination.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by JackDaydream »

One other important aspect besides good and evil as being part of the evolution of the idea of God is the question of gender in relation to God. In Christianity and other thest religions, including Islam, God is considered as masculine as the 'father'. This has been queried with the issue of whether God is 'she', androgynous or beyond physical conceptions of gender.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by Belindi »

JackDaydream wrote: January 15th, 2023, 2:37 am
Belindi wrote: January 14th, 2023, 7:32 pm God is all events that ever happened and ever can happen. Every event necessarily happened and could not have been otherwise than it was. If anyone wants to know God a bit better they have to learn why stuff happens as it does, and why people behave as they do.
The perspective which you offer is one of immanence. I once came across an author Vera Stanley Alder who described human beings as 'cells of God's consciousness'. To describe everything as God may be seen as a metaphorical understanding. Many see this as being a reason to dismiss the idea of God and religious perspectives. However, the one thing which may be overlooked is the power of metaphor and symbolism as an important part of human thinking, even within the scientific imagination.
I like "immanence". Immanence of God deserves a separate discussion with reference to certain sayings attributed to Jesus. Thanks. I also like "cells of God's consciousness".
There is an ethical issue from deterministic panentheism ; the corollary is that when you understand why somebody behaves as they do then you can protect or help them and others, and you can more easily forgive . Among other aspects of real life this chimes with practical psychiatry.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by Belindi »

JackDaydream wrote: January 15th, 2023, 2:48 am One other important aspect besides good and evil as being part of the evolution of the idea of God is the question of gender in relation to God. In Christianity and other thest religions, including Islam, God is considered as masculine as the 'father'. This has been queried with the issue of whether God is 'she', androgynous or beyond physical conceptions of gender.
Male dominance is prevalent in most societies (citation required). Masculine action and passive feminine are very explicit in Chinese symbolism, see Tao Te Ching. However in Chinese symbolism male (Yang) does not dominate the female (Yin) but is the other aspect of change.Yin is more basic than Yang.

The act of copulation in mammalian species with wombs always involves the female as vessel and the male as penetrating the vessel. Jahweh disapproves of both homosexuality and masturbation as He makes clear in the Old Testament, and so the tradition of male dominance over women was set in holy writ for maybe three thousand years in Europe and the Middle East.

I don't know enough about ancient African traditions to comment except that division of labour between males and child bearers was a practical matter, and that among the Mende of Sierra Leone
the puberty initiation for boys was matched in status by that for girls.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

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Sy Borg wrote: January 14th, 2023, 5:31 pm The Earth is God, but an even greater deity created it and continues to shine energy down upon its creation.

Unlike many, I don't give credit some some darn humanoid phantasm from Middle Eastern Iron Age mythology. I give credit where it's due - this extraordinary planet of which we are all mere percolations of its surface. Earth and Sun did everything credited to anthropomorphic deities. Basically, we are trying to take credit for everything because we fail to truly see nature - the other percolations of the Earth. We humans have become huge and powerful, but we are still a system within these much larger and more powerful systems.
I'm half-way between you and the more, er, traditional theists. If there is a divine Creator, I know nothing of Her. She may well exist, but She hasn't deigned to tell me about it. There is little or nothing that I can intuit about Her. If She exists, She is so very different from anything I can imagine — or at least I assume so — that my speculations seem worthless and pointless. And, if there is no Creator, but only 'natural' processes such as you describe, the same applies. So I'll leave a Creator there.

God, on the other hand, I see as an emergent attribute of the 'natural' universe. She is the 'soul' or 'spirit' of the Universe, just as the spacetime universe is her physical manifestation, the 'body' of the Universe, as it were. I recognise Her as Gaia, but like the Hindus, I see any and all human representations or characterisations of God as equally valid. All of these perspectives, from Kami to Jesus, offer a useful-but-partial view of the ineffable God, whatever that is.

I offer no daft claims about Gaia's actual existence, such as might inflame rabid atheists or scientists (maybe rightly?). I claim only that She 'exists' in my mind, or so it seems to me, and gives me a role model that gives rise, eventually, to my personal sense of morality. And for me, that is Her primary 'purpose' — She is my life-guide, if you will.



Sy Borg wrote: January 14th, 2023, 5:31 pm The true Son of Man is Donald Trump - always taking credit for things that others do, and claiming to be The Greatest. He is like a microcosm of immature humanity. The way humanity operates as a collective is distinctly Trumpian - full of ego, bluster, BS and self-aggrandisement. Hence our humanoid deities.
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Re: How Do You Understand the Idea of 'God'?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: January 15th, 2023, 2:48 am One other important aspect besides good and evil as being part of the evolution of the idea of God is the question of gender in relation to God. In Christianity and other theist religions, including Islam, God is considered as masculine as the 'father'. This has been queried with the issue of whether God is 'she', androgynous or beyond physical conceptions of gender.
The latter. Definitely the latter. 👍
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