How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Stoppelmann »

JackDaydream wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:40 pm I am extremely interested in Buddhism but from some writers who I have come across, there can be a tendency to view suffering and evil in a way which is almost exclusively in the inner rather than the outer conditions. This is in seeing the problem of evil as being a problem of human perspective and the need for peace within. Of course, part of the problem is about the inner conflict between good and evil. However, those who see it all as being about the search for inner peace may become blind to injustice and social sources of suffering, especially when the idea of the 'will of God' is used to justify the status quo. However, it is likely that such thinking is a shallow interpretation of spirituality and one which dismisses the interrelationship between inner and outer conditions.
There are of course these things, but it makes it all the more important to have some habit that is wholesome, and reveals the inner turmoil that should bring on humility. It is humility that knows that we live from our interactions, that we stand on the shoulders of those who came before, that we are prone to misjudgement, and that we repeatedly need forgiveness as we live our lives, which has to be reciprocal.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Sy Borg »

Evil and suffering reflect the chaotic aspects of immaturity or unbalanced maturity. Good reflects a healthy balance of order and chaos.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Wilkister Inzai Avagalwa »

We all have different perspectives on good, evil, and suffering. Often good and evil are normally taken as being the opposite of each other. For instance, you are termed as a good person when doing good to others and you are always ready to help. On the other hand, being evil is when you're in a position to help or do good but you don't do so. Most people believe that those who are evil end up suffering as a punishment for being evil.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:48 am Good reflects a healthy balance of order and chaos.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Stoppelmann »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 1st, 2023, 1:14 pm
Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:48 am Good reflects a healthy balance of order and chaos.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by JackDaydream »

Stoppelmann wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:41 am
JackDaydream wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:40 pm I am extremely interested in Buddhism but from some writers who I have come across, there can be a tendency to view suffering and evil in a way which is almost exclusively in the inner rather than the outer conditions. This is in seeing the problem of evil as being a problem of human perspective and the need for peace within. Of course, part of the problem is about the inner conflict between good and evil. However, those who see it all as being about the search for inner peace may become blind to injustice and social sources of suffering, especially when the idea of the 'will of God' is used to justify the status quo. However, it is likely that such thinking is a shallow interpretation of spirituality and one which dismisses the interrelationship between inner and outer conditions.
There are of course these things, but it makes it all the more important to have some habit that is wholesome, and reveals the inner turmoil that should bring on humility. It is humility that knows that we live from our interactions, that we stand on the shoulders of those who came before, that we are prone to misjudgement, and that we repeatedly need forgiveness as we live our lives, which has to be reciprocal.
Forgiveness of self and others is important and the two are interconnected. I come from the Catholic tradition where there is the ritual of confessing sins to a priest in confession. This can be stressful or some go through the process and commit the same sins again. Many Catholics, including myself, experience a problem of guilt. One book which I have found helpful, although it is frowned upon by some members of Catholicism, is, 'A Course in Miracles'. This channelled text is a psychological interpretation, speaking of how the ego feeds into the problem of guilt, and looks at potential healing, arguing how guilt can be so destructive.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Tom Butler »

JackDaydream wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:23 pm I am extremely interested in 'The Hermetica', as a source underlying so much in the development and evolution of religious thinking, especially in the underlying esoteric aspects. It may be that such thinking was extremely advanced capturing 'spiritual wisdom' of great importance....
Of course, the lessons are important, but my main interest in the Hermetica and Katha Upanishad is the antiquity of their expression of principles. Principles, such as balance and the creative process, are being taught to modern-day seekers. Yet the same principles have been taught for at least 6,000 years. That seems to go toward supporting the authenticity of the lessons.

To be clear, I am not alluding to a belief-based system of thought such as creationism. The implication of Instrumental TransCommunication is that we are first nonphysical personalities and then people. Some of nonphysical personalities are incarnated and some are not. If you are inclined to accept that our primary self is long lived relative to our human avatar, then it becomes sensible to think the same mechanisms involved in biology-etheric controls (self-to-biology movement commands and biology-to-self signals from the five senses) might be used in trans-communication.

Our examples of ITC are best modeled as etheric mind-to-physical processes exchanges. The same can be said for mental mediumship. In my considered opinion, all of our choices are to some extent influenced by way of a mind-to-mind exchange of intention.

I understand how "over to top" this kind of speculation appears. It comes from chasing implications. If we as sentient self continues beyond biological death, and if the evidence of ITC does support the possibility of trans-etheric influences, then it is a small leap in reasoning to argue that the spiritual lessons taught in the past came from essentially the same source as what we are encountering today.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by JackDaydream »

Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:48 am Evil and suffering reflect the chaotic aspects of immaturity or unbalanced maturity. Good reflects a healthy balance of order and chaos.
It is interesting that you have found a way of thinking about the concepts of good and evil while some on forums seem to dismiss any meaning to them beyond the relative ones ascribed to them. That tendency seems to be a result of the stretching of cultural and moral relativism. The idea of finding balance was emphasised by Jung in the concept of wholeness. He argued that in the Judaeo- Christian tradition there had been an unfortunate emphasis on perfection, which had resulted in a lack of balance. However, finding balance or wholeness may be a difficult one because it requires so much integration of aspects of the personality.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by JackDaydream »

Wilkister Inzai Avagalwa wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:25 am We all have different perspectives on good, evil, and suffering. Often good and evil are normally taken as being the opposite of each other. For instance, you are termed as a good person when doing good to others and you are always ready to help. On the other hand, being evil is when you're in a position to help or do good but you don't do so. Most people believe that those who are evil end up suffering as a punishment for being evil.
The concept of being a 'good person' is a central aspect of identity for some people while some don't see it as being important. It is possible to see those who don't help as being evil, as being blind to the needs of others although there may be a danger of making judgements. There is the question whether omission or specific acts committed is more problematic. The belief that people who have been evil are being 'punished' is based on the idea of natural justice. What I remember is the story of Hitler killing himself after commissioning so many deaths in concentration camps. It may also be that the idea of hatred of others and self may coexist.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by JackDaydream »

Tom Butler wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:35 pm
JackDaydream wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:23 pm I am extremely interested in 'The Hermetica', as a source underlying so much in the development and evolution of religious thinking, especially in the underlying esoteric aspects. It may be that such thinking was extremely advanced capturing 'spiritual wisdom' of great importance....
Of course, the lessons are important, but my main interest in the Hermetica and Katha Upanishad is the antiquity of their expression of principles. Principles, such as balance and the creative process, are being taught to modern-day seekers. Yet the same principles have been taught for at least 6,000 years. That seems to go toward supporting the authenticity of the lessons.

To be clear, I am not alluding to a belief-based system of thought such as creationism. The implication of Instrumental TransCommunication is that we are first nonphysical personalities and then people. Some of nonphysical personalities are incarnated and some are not. If you are inclined to accept that our primary self is long lived relative to our human avatar, then it becomes sensible to think the same mechanisms involved in biology-etheric controls (self-to-biology movement commands and biology-to-self signals from the five senses) might be used in trans-communication.

Our examples of ITC are best modeled as etheric mind-to-physical processes exchanges. The same can be said for mental mediumship. In my considered opinion, all of our choices are to some extent influenced by way of a mind-to-mind exchange of intention.

I understand how "over to top" this kind of speculation appears. It comes from chasing implications. If we as sentient self continues beyond biological death, and if the evidence of ITC does support the possibility of trans-etheric influences, then it is a small leap in reasoning to argue that the spiritual lessons taught in the past came from essentially the same source as what we are encountering today.
Your perspective is interesting and probably fairly unusual in the twentieth first century. I do wonder how so much is about what is taking place on the level of intent rather than simply in action. In deontological ethics there was an emphasis on intentions rather than mere ends of action. This may have resulted on a sense of virtue as a goal in itself, whereas utilitarianism emphasises consequences as an end. However, they may be both sides of the same coin. I do wonder to what extent intent in itself operates on tangible consequences, with intent having an influence in it's own result. This would give rise to consciousness being seen as having more of a role in the causal process than most people acknowledge and I do wonder if there some truth in this, with mind itself having an influential role at the core of human life rather than simply being secondary to the material processes of causation. That is how I am seeing your viewpoint, if I am interpreting it correctly.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:15 pm
Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:48 am Evil and suffering reflect the chaotic aspects of immaturity or unbalanced maturity. Good reflects a healthy balance of order and chaos.
It is interesting that you have found a way of thinking about the concepts of good and evil while some on forums seem to dismiss any meaning to them beyond the relative ones ascribed to them. That tendency seems to be a result of the stretching of cultural and moral relativism. The idea of finding balance was emphasised by Jung in the concept of wholeness. He argued that in the Judaeo- Christian tradition there had been an unfortunate emphasis on perfection, which had resulted in a lack of balance. However, finding balance or wholeness may be a difficult one because it requires so much integration of aspects of the personality.
It's just how I word it. My substantive points are the same.

The point is the good and evil are simply a matter of the dance between order/growth and destruction/entropy. The sweet spot - where complexity can exist - is not at the extremes but in balance. What is perfection? A crystal - beautiful, fixed, inert. What is chaos? Messy, unstable, overly dynamic. The sweet spot will contain flawed beauty that is stable, but not fixed.

Note that it's not so easy for an individual to be balanced when the world around is out of balance. Ultimately, balance and stability come with maturity. I do not believe that humanity is mature (duh!). Just as a toddler will rage over BS, so does humanity en masse. Individuals are more mature than entire societies, because the kinds of institutions we have created are in their infancy. And they behave like infants too - voracious in appetite and entirely self-focused.

Meanwhile, the Earth itself is approaching its dotage. It's 4.5 billion years old, and its biology is about 3.7 billion years old. Yet the oceans are due to be evaporated away in less a billion years - and presumably the oceans at 60C - long before they boil away - will already be mostly abiotic.

The point I am labouring over here is that Earthly biology is already over eighty percent into its lifespan. So we have and old, mature Earth and biosphere that contain somewhat mature individual humans who have formed large institutions that are in their infancy.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Tom Butler »

JackDaydream wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:37 pm Your perspective is interesting and probably fairly unusual in the twentieth first century. I do wonder how so much is about what is taking place on the level of intent rather than simply in action. In deontological ethics there was an emphasis on intentions rather than mere ends of action. This may have resulted on a sense of virtue as a goal in itself, whereas utilitarianism emphasises consequences as an end. However, they may be both sides of the same coin. I do wonder to what extent intent in itself operates on tangible consequences, with intent having an influence in it's own result. This would give rise to consciousness being seen as having more of a role in the causal process than most people acknowledge and I do wonder if there some truth in this, with mind itself having an influential role at the core of human life rather than simply being secondary to the material processes of causation. That is how I am seeing your viewpoint, if I am interpreting it correctly.
To understand Psi-related phenomena, especially apparent trans-etheric influence, it has been necessary to realign my thinking away from my training as an engineer. As a director of an ITC-oriented organization, I have encountered a wide range of thought by supposed parapsychologists to self-proclaimed skeptics. For instance, I have learned that a parent grieving the loss of a child approaches ITC very differently than a person seeking spiritual maturity. Skeptics tend to be delusional. scientists tend to be myopic. Laypeople tend to be like Munchkins with the Wizard of Oz. Radical political conservative tend to make choices that seem more like animal survival behavior than informed citizens.

We all think in the same information field, yet we often arrive at very different points of view. It is in trying to understand the differences that has guided my perspective. Here are some of my guiding thoughts:

Moral codes are generally written to protect organizations while personal codes of ethics tend to be a potent tool for self-improvement. Morality tends to be local while ethics tend to be universal.

People typically feel justified in their choices. The problem is not evil, it is education and fairness.

Seeking is examining assumptions. If a person does not understand the implications of their assumptions, they should resist making a choice until they do.

The one sin is Seth's Do not violate others.

It is useful to model the etheric as conceptual space as opposed to the physical objective space:

Think of attention as the gathering of potential to do work. Intention is the steering mechanism for attention while focus defines the force.

From my studies, it appears that intention is the only influence we have on the formation of perception in our mostly unconscious mind. That does not appear to be a direct influence, but a "turn toward" wants.

The problem I have is learning how to communicate these concepts. While they are not New Age, they are frontier and require the thinker to understand basic concepts.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by JackDaydream »

Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:50 pm
JackDaydream wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:15 pm
Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:48 am Evil and suffering reflect the chaotic aspects of immaturity or unbalanced maturity. Good reflects a healthy balance of order and chaos.
It is interesting that you have found a way of thinking about the concepts of good and evil while some on forums seem to dismiss any meaning to them beyond the relative ones ascribed to them. That tendency seems to be a result of the stretching of cultural and moral relativism. The idea of finding balance was emphasised by Jung in the concept of wholeness. He argued that in the Judaeo- Christian tradition there had been an unfortunate emphasis on perfection, which had resulted in a lack of balance. However, finding balance or wholeness may be a difficult one because it requires so much integration of aspects of the personality.
It's just how I word it. My substantive points are the same.

The point is the good and evil are simply a matter of the dance between order/growth and destruction/entropy. The sweet spot - where complexity can exist - is not at the extremes but in balance. What is perfection? A crystal - beautiful, fixed, inert. What is chaos? Messy, unstable, overly dynamic. The sweet spot will contain flawed beauty that is stable, but not fixed.

Note that it's not so easy for an individual to be balanced when the world around is out of balance. Ultimately, balance and stability come with maturity. I do not believe that humanity is mature (duh!). Just as a toddler will rage over BS, so does humanity en masse. Individuals are more mature than entire societies, because the kinds of institutions we have created are in their infancy. And they behave like infants too - voracious in appetite and entirely self-focused.

Meanwhile, the Earth itself is approaching its dotage. It's 4.5 billion years old, and its biology is about 3.7 billion years old. Yet the oceans are due to be evaporated away in less a billion years - and presumably the oceans at 60C - long before they boil away - will already be mostly abiotic.

The point I am labouring over here is that Earthly biology is already over eighty percent into its lifespan. So we have and old, mature Earth and biosphere that contain somewhat mature individual humans who have formed large institutions that are in their infancy.
I am certainly not of the view that good and evil are concrete absolutes and I do appreciate your point of view, because so much is about human understanding and how ideas of finding balance in between the opposite of 'good' and 'evil' is an intricate dance, with so much interpretation involved. It may be that the major incongruities, where there are violations of others' rights, freedom and abuse of power that 'evil' stands out like an angry, sore thumb, especially in relation to expectations and ethical ideals.

In thinking about the fate of the earth, the point you make about the earth having reached an advanced progression in its lifespan may be important. Sometimes, discussion about planet earth's ecology seems to attribute 'evil' to humans beings. It may be that the role of humanity is significant but it may be that certain aspects of ecological problems cannot be attributed to human beings as the ultimate source of 'evil' entirely. Humans are part of nature and have a significant role as part of this, but, independently of this, the present earth is probably not an immortal life form, and will wither and die. This may not be acknowledged in some perspectives which may see nature as intrinsically good, casting all the blame on humanity as the force of 'evil' itself.
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by JackDaydream »

Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:50 pm
JackDaydream wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:15 pm
Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:48 am Evil and suffering reflect the chaotic aspects of immaturity or unbalanced maturity. Good reflects a healthy balance of order and chaos.
It is interesting that you have found a way of thinking about the concepts of good and evil while some on forums seem to dismiss any meaning to them beyond the relative ones ascribed to them. That tendency seems to be a result of the stretching of cultural and moral relativism. The idea of finding balance was emphasised by Jung in the concept of wholeness. He argued that in the Judaeo- Christian tradition there had been an unfortunate emphasis on perfection, which had resulted in a lack of balance. However, finding balance or wholeness may be a difficult one because it requires so much integration of aspects of the personality.
It's just how I word it. My substantive points are the same.

The point is the good and evil are simply a matter of the dance between order/growth and destruction/entropy. The sweet spot - where complexity can exist - is not at the extremes but in balance. What is perfection? A crystal - beautiful, fixed, inert. What is chaos? Messy, unstable, overly dynamic. The sweet spot will contain flawed beauty that is stable, but not fixed.

Note that it's not so easy for an individual to be balanced when the world around is out of balance. Ultimately, balance and stability come with maturity. I do not believe that humanity is mature (duh!). Just as a toddler will rage over BS, so does humanity en masse. Individuals are more mature than entire societies, because the kinds of institutions we have created are in their infancy. And they behave like infants too - voracious in appetite and entirely self-focused.

Meanwhile, the Earth itself is approaching its dotage. It's 4.5 billion years old, and its biology is about 3.7 billion years old. Yet the oceans are due to be evaporated away in less a billion years - and presumably the oceans at 60C - long before they boil away - will already be mostly abiotic.

The point I am labouring over here is that Earthly biology is already over eighty percent into its lifespan. So we have and old, mature Earth and biosphere that contain somewhat mature individual humans who have formed large institutions that are in their infancy.
Before I began reading and writing on philosophy sites a couple of years ago, I used to go to read all kinds of esoteric spiritual ideas and those in the field of mind, body and spirit. I came across channelled ideas, including those of Seth and the Pleiadians as well. I was familiar with the idea of going beyond 3D into 5D or multidimensional reality. In this respect, there was often an emphasis on good and evil or the 'light and dark forces'. This may go back to esoteric thought and it has been followed through by writers like Diana Cooper. I am not entirely dismissive of this, and find philosophy important, as long as it is not simply academic or shallow in its treatment of ideas. In thinking about good and evil as ideas, as well as the practical aspects, what I am interested in is how this can be put together constructively from the divergent perspectives. How is it possible to filter out the nonsense from the mystical and gong beyond the tangents of philosophyical theory, in looking at contrasting approaches and finding out the essential aspects of importance for clarity in thinking?
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Re: How Do You Explain and Understand Good, Evil and Suffering?

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 9:12 am
Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:50 pm
JackDaydream wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:15 pm
Sy Borg wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:48 am Evil and suffering reflect the chaotic aspects of immaturity or unbalanced maturity. Good reflects a healthy balance of order and chaos.
It is interesting that you have found a way of thinking about the concepts of good and evil while some on forums seem to dismiss any meaning to them beyond the relative ones ascribed to them. That tendency seems to be a result of the stretching of cultural and moral relativism. The idea of finding balance was emphasised by Jung in the concept of wholeness. He argued that in the Judaeo- Christian tradition there had been an unfortunate emphasis on perfection, which had resulted in a lack of balance. However, finding balance or wholeness may be a difficult one because it requires so much integration of aspects of the personality.
It's just how I word it. My substantive points are the same.

The point is the good and evil are simply a matter of the dance between order/growth and destruction/entropy. The sweet spot - where complexity can exist - is not at the extremes but in balance. What is perfection? A crystal - beautiful, fixed, inert. What is chaos? Messy, unstable, overly dynamic. The sweet spot will contain flawed beauty that is stable, but not fixed.

Note that it's not so easy for an individual to be balanced when the world around is out of balance. Ultimately, balance and stability come with maturity. I do not believe that humanity is mature (duh!). Just as a toddler will rage over BS, so does humanity en masse. Individuals are more mature than entire societies, because the kinds of institutions we have created are in their infancy. And they behave like infants too - voracious in appetite and entirely self-focused.

Meanwhile, the Earth itself is approaching its dotage. It's 4.5 billion years old, and its biology is about 3.7 billion years old. Yet the oceans are due to be evaporated away in less a billion years - and presumably the oceans at 60C - long before they boil away - will already be mostly abiotic.

The point I am labouring over here is that Earthly biology is already over eighty percent into its lifespan. So we have and old, mature Earth and biosphere that contain somewhat mature individual humans who have formed large institutions that are in their infancy.
I am certainly not of the view that good and evil are concrete absolutes and I do appreciate your point of view, because so much is about human understanding and how ideas of finding balance in between the opposite of 'good' and 'evil' is an intricate dance, with so much interpretation involved. It may be that the major incongruities, where there are violations of others' rights, freedom and abuse of power that 'evil' stands out like an angry, sore thumb, especially in relation to expectations and ethical ideals.

In thinking about the fate of the earth, the point you make about the earth having reached an advanced progression in its lifespan may be important. Sometimes, discussion about planet earth's ecology seems to attribute 'evil' to humans beings. It may be that the role of humanity is significant but it may be that certain aspects of ecological problems cannot be attributed to human beings as the ultimate source of 'evil' entirely. Humans are part of nature and have a significant role as part of this, but, independently of this, the present earth is probably not an immortal life form, and will wither and die. This may not be acknowledged in some perspectives which may see nature as intrinsically good, casting all the blame on humanity as the force of 'evil' itself.
Humans are the only way that Earth life will be able to spread to other worlds. Metaphorically, I think humans are more "cracking eggs to make an omelette" than evil, as such. The child must die so that the adult may live, so to speak.
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June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021