Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible

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Ranvier wrote: March 14th, 2023, 7:41 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 14th, 2023, 12:13 am

Interesting thought experiment, though I've always been a sucker for multi-dimensional matrices. Still, remember the fact of the marbles. There can be no information without the stuff to configure. So I see matter and information as inevitable sides of the same coin.
How do you imagine the "multi-dimensional matrices"?
Multiple connections between entities with numerous overlapping fields. Life, brains, ecosystems, societies and other social groupings, planetary systems, solar systems, galaxies etc etc. The connections between components are complex beyond imagining.
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Ranvier
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Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible

Post by Ranvier »

Sy Borg wrote: March 14th, 2023, 9:30 pm
Ranvier wrote: March 14th, 2023, 7:41 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 14th, 2023, 12:13 am

Interesting thought experiment, though I've always been a sucker for multi-dimensional matrices. Still, remember the fact of the marbles. There can be no information without the stuff to configure. So I see matter and information as inevitable sides of the same coin.
How do you imagine the "multi-dimensional matrices"?
Multiple connections between entities with numerous overlapping fields. Life, brains, ecosystems, societies and other social groupings, planetary systems, solar systems, galaxies etc etc. The connections between components are complex beyond imagining.
indeed. So you're also imagining the multidimensional systems in a non classical sense. For me it's much easier to convert everything into "information" of data set (field) and imagine probabilistic outcomes from interaction between these fields. I try to imagine why reality assumes certain shapes, which are definitely not random but manifest strange regularity of patterns. Some prefer instead to approach this phenomenon of repeating patterns using geometry or other complex mathematical systems (fractals) but the equations seem to be changing as well in some kind of pattern.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible

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Ranvier wrote: March 14th, 2023, 11:45 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 14th, 2023, 9:30 pm
Ranvier wrote: March 14th, 2023, 7:41 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 14th, 2023, 12:13 am

Interesting thought experiment, though I've always been a sucker for multi-dimensional matrices. Still, remember the fact of the marbles. There can be no information without the stuff to configure. So I see matter and information as inevitable sides of the same coin.
How do you imagine the "multi-dimensional matrices"?
Multiple connections between entities with numerous overlapping fields. Life, brains, ecosystems, societies and other social groupings, planetary systems, solar systems, galaxies etc etc. The connections between components are complex beyond imagining.
indeed. So you're also imagining the multidimensional systems in a non classical sense. For me it's much easier to convert everything into "information" of data set (field) and imagine probabilistic outcomes from interaction between these fields. I try to imagine why reality assumes certain shapes, which are definitely not random but manifest strange regularity of patterns. Some prefer instead to approach this phenomenon of repeating patterns using geometry or other complex mathematical systems (fractals) but the equations seem to be changing as well in some kind of pattern.
When it comes to reality's shapes, form will follow function. Branching, for instance, is about growth and expansion. Trees, streams, mind maps, roots, routes stemming from ant nests, etc.

An interesting one is the expression of multi-dimensional arrays such as the cosmic web, brains and, fabulously, kitchen sponges :) They are ultimately an extension of branching, but their interlocking nature means that matter, information and water respectively can be captured.

Oh, another mad scientist idea, that the next extra dimension is inversion and eversion - the rate at which things turn outside-in (when growing) and inside-out (when growth has slowed). You'd need an 5D grid to plot it. From that, it follows that the Earth and other complex, active cosmic objects with atmospheres are hyperspheres. That is, they are all slowly everting due to gravity. The inward pressure essentially squeezes stuff up to form an top later and an atmosphere, some of which gradually leaches back deep into the system and some of it escapes into space. The process keeps on cycling though. Inversion and eversion are the dynamics of life and death. If those processes are not in train, then it's game over. The whole universe is in a state of eversion.

Another natural dynamic of interest is nucleation, how so very many things have a more dense core surrounded by less dense stuff. Solar systems, cells, atoms, galaxies, cities, etc.
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RJG
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Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible

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”Bahman” wrote: To show this we first notice that any act including the act of creation has a before and an after. This means that time is needed for any act since there is a before and an after in any act. The act of creation however includes the creation of time as well. This means that we need time for the creation of time. This leads to an infinite regress. The infinite regress is not acceptable. Therefore, the act of creation from nothing is logically impossible.
”Consul” wrote: A timeless world is absolutely static ("frozen"), so nothing can happen or be done therein. The idea of an atemporal creation of time is self-contradictory, since all creations are essentially time-involving.
I am late to this discussion, but Bahman and Consul are spot on. It is logically impossible for there to be a beginning of time or a creation event of this universe. The universe (and time) are "beginning-less" (infinite). A simple logical proof:
  • P1. If the universe did not exist, then time could not exist.
    P2. If time did not exist, then "beginnings" are not possible.
    C1. Therefore, if the universe did not exist, then it could not "begin" to exist.

    P3. The universe exists.
    C2. Therefore, the universe is "beginning-less" (infinite).

”Sculptor1” wrote:Logic does not address what is or is not empirically possible.
Sure it does! --- It is impossible to do the impossible --- That which is logically impossible is also empirically/physically impossible.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible

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As far as we know, "nothing" is a purely relative concept. Also, as far as we know, vacuum energy is eternal, though it might just be very, very long-lasting. After all, there is a small reef fish that completes its entire life cycle in eight weeks. To them, the coral reefs in which they settle and mature (over a period of a week or two) would seem eternal.
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