For all we know, there could be a point in history, or other areas in reality, where "nothing to something" was/is logically possible. We aren't clear on the origins of logic itself. Maybe it always existed, maybe it spontaneously arose bit by bit. Maybe it's universal, or maybe it's local. So your argument is still dependent on several unproven premises. We have yet to prove that such a thing as "nothing" physically exists, or that a creator-god can exist without an origin to his existence. You haven't even ruled out the possibility that a god both existed and was eternal, yet the universe created itself. So, your entire conclusion, and every premise, are still unfounded.
Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: February 16th, 2023, 10:50 pm
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7148
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
It is neither logically possible or impossible for spontaneous generation either through a conscious act of will or not.GE Morton wrote: ↑March 10th, 2023, 11:10 am Finally, it is not logically impossible for something to spontaneously appear from nothing. Note that a spontaneous appearance is not the same as a "creation." The latter implies a creator; the former does not. The former may be theoretically impossible and counterintuitive, but it violates no logical rule.
Logic does not enter into it.
Inductively we an suggest that spontaneous generation is highly improbable, but was can say little more.
Historically cases of spontaneous generation have bee demonstrated to have had causes.
- Bahman
- Posts: 213
- Joined: July 3rd, 2016, 11:51 am
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
I said if it is shown... I didn't say that it is shown!Carter Blunt wrote: ↑March 10th, 2023, 12:04 pmFor all we know, there could be a point in history, or other areas in reality, where "nothing to something" was/is logically possible. We aren't clear on the origins of logic itself. Maybe it always existed, maybe it spontaneously arose bit by bit. Maybe it's universal, or maybe it's local. So your argument is still dependent on several unproven premises. We have yet to prove that such a thing as "nothing" physically exists, or that a creator-god can exist without an origin to his existence. You haven't even ruled out the possibility that a god both existed and was eternal, yet the universe created itself. So, your entire conclusion, and every premise, are still unfounded.
- Ranvier
- Posts: 772
- Joined: February 12th, 2017, 1:47 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
Yes. Anything that "exists" is a creation of "energy". Energy itself can't be created nor destroyed but only change forms from one state to another. When in your mind God is a "being" that creates, logically it should follow that God(being) is energy.
I was under a false impression that you may be more comfortable in using the language of Theology.
- Ranvier
- Posts: 772
- Joined: February 12th, 2017, 1:47 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
There is always a possibility that my logic is flawed. However, if words should have any meaning at all, the concept itself labeled as "nothing" can't produce or "exist" alongside of "something", because that "nothing" would be "something" that's different from that "something". "Nothing" would therefore be "something" that logically can't be "nothing", in presence of "something" that's different from something else called "nothing". Since [we] are here typing on a keyboard as the "something", therefore, "nothing" is logically impossible. False or not a true premise.Carter Blunt wrote: ↑March 10th, 2023, 12:04 pm
For all we know, there could be a point in history, or other areas in reality, where "nothing to something" was/is logically possible. We aren't clear on the origins of logic itself. Maybe it always existed, maybe it spontaneously arose bit by bit. Maybe it's universal, or maybe it's local. So your argument is still dependent on several unproven premises. We have yet to prove that such a thing as "nothing" physically exists, or that a creator-god can exist without an origin to his existence. You haven't even ruled out the possibility that a god both existed and was eternal, yet the universe created itself. So, your entire conclusion, and every premise, are still unfounded.
-
- Posts: 4696
- Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
Nope. There could be no "act of creation" without an actor/creator. I.e., an actor/creator must already exist in order for an act of creation to be possible.
A creator need not be a being: "Between June 1st and November 30th and peaking between late August and mid-September, the Atlantic Ocean becomes a meteorological mixing bowl, with all of the ingredients necessary to create the recipe for hurricanes."Well, that depends on how you define God. To me, God by definition is a being with the ability to create.
https://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/envir ... ECIPE.html
That's true; it is a tautology. It would be true for any X "if there was nothing but X."Correct. I should have written it this way: "if nothing to something is impossible and there was a point where there was nothing but God then it follows that God is the creator".
- Sy Borg
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15148
- Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
- Ranvier
- Posts: 772
- Joined: February 12th, 2017, 1:47 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
Indeed. Logically, there could only be "something" without anything else within [Infinity], until there was something else within that [Infinity]. Contemplating from a position of "something" (consciousness) within "something" else (reality, universe, God, energy, or any concept one finds particularly endearing), I have no difficulty at all to imagine infinity but I can't fathom "nothingness". There is no need or any logical reason to invoke an impossible to even imagine concept of "nothing", since I do in fact "exist" to contemplate the "existence" of that concept "nothingness" or "nothing". How can this not be obvious?
- Ranvier
- Posts: 772
- Joined: February 12th, 2017, 1:47 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
- Sy Borg
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15148
- Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
As far as I'm concerned, "nothing" is a relative term. As far we know there has always been something.Ranvier wrote: ↑March 10th, 2023, 3:39 pmIndeed. Logically, there could only be "something" without anything else within [Infinity], until there was something else within that [Infinity]. Contemplating from a position of "something" (consciousness) within "something" else (reality, universe, God, energy, or any concept one finds particularly endearing), I have no difficulty at all to imagine infinity but I can't fathom "nothingness". There is no need or any logical reason to invoke an impossible to even imagine concept of "nothing", since I do in fact "exist" to contemplate the "existence" of that concept "nothingness" or "nothing". How can this not be obvious?
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: February 16th, 2023, 10:50 pm
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
Imagine only empty space, going on infinitely. Now imagine no space at all. That emptiness when space closes up, is nothing. That's what I assume we started with. Actual nothing. But somehow within nothing, is the theoretical potential for everything. Maybe because there is nothing to hold the nothing in place.
- Ranvier
- Posts: 772
- Joined: February 12th, 2017, 1:47 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
It's more than mere semantics of words. [Infinity] has potential, some properties, if only to hold my consciousness. It's something. "Nothing" is a deceptive illogical concept that affects how people think and "reason" (verb).
- Ranvier
- Posts: 772
- Joined: February 12th, 2017, 1:47 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
I can't imagine that. The space (space is something) is infinitely closing, never "closes up" into "nothing".Carter Blunt wrote: ↑March 10th, 2023, 4:24 pmImagine only empty space, going on infinitely. Now imagine no space at all. That emptiness when space closes up, is nothing. That's what I assume we started with. Actual nothing. But somehow within nothing, is the theoretical potential for everything. Maybe because there is nothing to hold the nothing in place.
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: February 16th, 2023, 10:50 pm
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
I can't actually conceive of space as infinite. Interesting.Ranvier wrote: ↑March 10th, 2023, 4:42 pmI can't imagine that. The space (space is something) is infinitely closing, never "closes up" into "nothing".Carter Blunt wrote: ↑March 10th, 2023, 4:24 pmImagine only empty space, going on infinitely. Now imagine no space at all. That emptiness when space closes up, is nothing. That's what I assume we started with. Actual nothing. But somehow within nothing, is the theoretical potential for everything. Maybe because there is nothing to hold the nothing in place.
- Ranvier
- Posts: 772
- Joined: February 12th, 2017, 1:47 pm
- Location: USA
Re: Act of creation from nothing is logically impossible
Indeed, interesting. This is quite important. Notice how many pages of text are used on something obvious, just because someone asked "How can there be something from nothing"?Carter Blunt wrote: ↑March 10th, 2023, 4:57 pm I can't actually conceive of space as infinite. Interesting.
Concepts and logic are important to how we think and our reasoning. "How can there be something from infinity"? The question is at least logical and makes sense.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023