Asceticism, aestheticism, and joy

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Ecurb
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Asceticism, aestheticism, and joy

Post by Ecurb »

Ascetecism is the denial of wordly pleasures in the pursuit of spiritual ones. It is generally attributed to monks, hermits and nuns.

Few people would think of Omar Khayam as ascetic:
A book of verses underneath the bough,
A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou
Beside me singing in the wilderness --
O wilderness were Paradise Enow....
Clearly, Omar sees himself as aesthetic, not ascetic. But is the distinction real? If bread is "enow", isn't Omar denying himself caviar, and fruit, and dessert? Like the monk, Omar eschews some sensual pleasures for those he finds greater -- or at least sufficient.

We see St. Francis as ascetic. Franciscans (including their founder) swear vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. In doing so, they forsake love, worldly goods and pleasures, and freedom. Is this an ascetic choice? Or, like Omar's, is it an aesthetic one? Francis, after all, appears to have been the most joyful of men. To him, the world, nay, the entire universe, was like a small village or a pleasant home. His asceticism led him to take joy in every bird that flew by, and every man-eating wolf that he befriended. Rather than being awed by the sun and the moon, he called them his brother and sister.

The Victorian aesthetes like Oscar Wilde were not ascetic. They sought and lived for pleasure. But did they find it? Or did Francis and his crew of shabby beggars find more aesthetic pleasure in their ascetic lives than Wilde, or Khayam?
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Stoppelmann
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Re: Asceticism, aestheticism, and joy

Post by Stoppelmann »

Ecurb wrote: March 6th, 2023, 7:34 pm Ascetecism is the denial of wordly pleasures in the pursuit of spiritual ones. It is generally attributed to monks, hermits and nuns.

Few people would think of Omar Khayam as ascetic:
A book of verses underneath the bough,
A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou
Beside me singing in the wilderness --
O wilderness were Paradise Enow....
Clearly, Omar sees himself as aesthetic, not ascetic. But is the distinction real? If bread is "enow", isn't Omar denying himself caviar, and fruit, and dessert? Like the monk, Omar eschews some sensual pleasures for those he finds greater -- or at least sufficient.
The earliest allusion to Omar Khayyam's poetry is from the historian Imad ad-Din al-Isfahani, a younger contemporary of Khayyam, who explicitly identifies him as both a poet and a scientist (Wikipedia).
Ecurb wrote: March 6th, 2023, 7:34 pm We see St. Francis as ascetic. Franciscans (including their founder) swear vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. In doing so, they forsake love, worldly goods and pleasures, and freedom. Is this an ascetic choice? Or, like Omar's, is it an aesthetic one? Francis, after all, appears to have been the most joyful of men. To him, the world, nay, the entire universe, was like a small village or a pleasant home. His asceticism led him to take joy in every bird that flew by, and every man-eating wolf that he befriended. Rather than being awed by the sun and the moon, he called them his brother and sister.

The Victorian aesthetes like Oscar Wilde were not ascetic. They sought and lived for pleasure. But did they find it? Or did Francis and his crew of shabby beggars find more aesthetic pleasure in their ascetic lives than Wilde, or Khayam?
At first glance, St. Francis and Oscar Wilde may not seem to have many similarities, as they lived in very different time periods and had vastly different life experiences. However, upon closer examination, there are a few similarities that can be drawn between the two figures. One similarity is that both St. Francis and Oscar Wilde were known for their unconventional lifestyles and beliefs, but I think it isn’t just a case of ascetism vs. aestheticism because they are not opposites.

St. Francis famously renounced his wealth and dedicated his life to poverty and service to others, while Oscar Wilde defied Victorian norms with his flamboyant dress, unconventional relationships, and subversive art. An important similarity is that both figures were deeply influenced by their religious beliefs. St. Francis was a devout Catholic who believed in the importance of humility and compassion, while Oscar Wilde was raised as an Anglican but later converted to Catholicism while in prison. Both men grappled with spiritual questions throughout their lives, and their faith played a significant role in shaping their worldviews.

Finally, both St. Francis and Oscar Wilde were renowned for their artistic talents. St. Francis is often celebrated for his poetry and hymns, while Oscar Wilde is known for his plays, novels, and essays. Both men used their art as a means of exploring deeper truths about the world and human nature.
While there are certainly differences between St. Francis and Oscar Wilde, these similarities suggest that both figures were complex, multifaceted individuals who defied easy categorization.
“Find someone who makes you realise three things:
One, that home is not a place, but a feeling.
Two, that time is not measured by a clock, but by moments.
And three, that heartbeats are not heard, but felt and shared.”
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Ecurb
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Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: Asceticism, aestheticism, and joy

Post by Ecurb »

Stoppelmann wrote: March 7th, 2023, 10:41 am
At first glance, St. Francis and Oscar Wilde may not seem to have many similarities, as they lived in very different time periods and had vastly different life experiences. However, upon closer examination, there are a few similarities that can be drawn between the two figures. One similarity is that both St. Francis and Oscar Wilde were known for their unconventional lifestyles and beliefs, but I think it isn’t just a case of ascetism vs. aestheticism because they are not opposites.

St. Francis famously renounced his wealth and dedicated his life to poverty and service to others, while Oscar Wilde defied Victorian norms with his flamboyant dress, unconventional relationships, and subversive art. An important similarity is that both figures were deeply influenced by their religious beliefs. St. Francis was a devout Catholic who believed in the importance of humility and compassion, while Oscar Wilde was raised as an Anglican but later converted to Catholicism while in prison. Both men grappled with spiritual questions throughout their lives, and their faith played a significant role in shaping their worldviews.

Finally, both St. Francis and Oscar Wilde were renowned for their artistic talents. St. Francis is often celebrated for his poetry and hymns, while Oscar Wilde is known for his plays, novels, and essays. Both men used their art as a means of exploring deeper truths about the world and human nature.
While there are certainly differences between St. Francis and Oscar Wilde, these similarities suggest that both figures were complex, multifaceted individuals who defied easy categorization.
That was my point. Asceticism may be an aesthetic choice. Khayam doubtless thought he enhanced the pleasures of a loaf of bread, a jug of wine and thou by renouncing gluttony and epicurean tastes (in both food and sex). Francis was the great aesthete of the high Middle Ages -- as well as being the great ascetic. He revelled in his asceticism, finding aesthetic beauty in everything he saw. By repudiating those human joys which other aesthetes (including Wilde) loved, he was able to find more aesthetic beauty than they.

We sometimes think of monks as melancholy because they deny themselves the pleasures of the world: sex, liberty, and hedonim. But perhaps they see us as melancholy because we deny ourselves the pleasures of prayer, silence and meditation.

The question that ineterests me is why did Francis -- the most loving and poetic of saints -- deny himself those pleasures which most of us find paramount -- love, property and freedom? Was it necessary, or coincidental? Why did Francis love where noone else loved (loving the larks, and the wolf and the sun and the moon), but refuse to love where other men loved (in marriage)?

The bachinalias of paganism were admired by Wilde and the aesthetes, but were they really more joyful than the renunciationsn of Francis and his monks?

p.s. I didn't know (or had forgotten) that Wilde converted to Catholicism. Thanks.
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thrasymachus
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Re: Asceticism, aestheticism, and joy

Post by thrasymachus »

Ecurb wrote
Clearly, Omar sees himself as aesthetic, not ascetic. But is the distinction real? If bread is "enow", isn't Omar denying himself caviar, and fruit, and dessert? Like the monk, Omar eschews some sensual pleasures for those he finds greater -- or at least sufficient.

We see St. Francis as ascetic. Franciscans (including their founder) swear vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. In doing so, they forsake love, worldly goods and pleasures, and freedom. Is this an ascetic choice? Or, like Omar's, is it an aesthetic one? Francis, after all, appears to have been the most joyful of men. To him, the world, nay, the entire universe, was like a small village or a pleasant home. His asceticism led him to take joy in every bird that flew by, and every man-eating wolf that he befriended. Rather than being awed by the sun and the moon, he called them his brother and sister.

The Victorian aesthetes like Oscar Wilde were not ascetic. They sought and lived for pleasure. But did they find it? Or did Francis and his crew of shabby beggars find more aesthetic pleasure in their ascetic lives than Wilde, or Khayam?
Aesthetic pleasures of an aesthetic life?? Is this not a blatant contradiction?
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