Why doesn't god prove himself?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Belindi »

Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 10th, 2020, 1:30 am
Belindi wrote: August 9th, 2020, 5:35 pm

What do you claim all gods have in common?
All the "gods" of Man (and note the scare quotes) are the stars of religious narratives about the nature of Divinity.
That God exists is almost certainly the case; what the nature of God is, is a mystery.
That's the role of religion in the world -- to unlock that mystery.

But unless you know "the nature of " it you can't know it exists.

For instance nobody knows what 6sgfhdje is , so how could anyone know it?
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Belindi »

Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 10th, 2020, 1:30 am
Belindi wrote: August 9th, 2020, 5:35 pm

What do you claim all gods have in common?
All the "gods" of Man (and note the scare quotes) are the stars of religious narratives about the nature of Divinity.
That God exists is almost certainly the case; what the nature of God is, is a mystery.
That's the role of religion in the world -- to unlock that mystery.

But unless you know "the nature of " anything you can't know it exists.

For instance nobody knows what 6sgfhdje is , so how could anyone know it?

To put it another way: one needs to be able to identify an elm tree before one can find an elm tree.
One needs to be able to identify food before one can find food.
You'd need to be able to identify a game of basket ball before you can find a game of basket ball.

You do not need to identify breathing before you can find breathing.
You do not have to be able to identify the digestion of food before you can digest your food.
However those are physiological unconscious processes . But God is not an unconscious physiological process.

God is the name of a star of a religious narrative , okay let's agree to that. What do all stars of all religious narratives have in common with each other, if anything?
User avatar
Angel Trismegistus
Posts: 568
Joined: July 25th, 2020, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Location: New York City

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2020, 2:44 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 9th, 2020, 4:51 am
I'm afraid I don't see the circle; I see a straight line -- a straight line between the evidence and what the evidence points to.
Can you help us see the circle you see?
1) The universe exists
2) Humans are part of this universe
3) Humans create the concept of gods who are capable of superhuman powers of creation, yet are undetectable
4) When queried on proof of these undetectable entities, the answer is: "see #1"
Your "circle" is broken in two places, it seems to me. One, it conflates the existence of God and human conceptions of God. Two, it conflates two separate syllogisms: the syllogism reasoning from the universe to God and the syllogism reasoning from the existence of Man to stories about God.

But our exchange of posts has inspired me to start a thread on our bone of contention. I'll try to get it up today. I hope you will grace it with your views.
Image
User avatar
Angel Trismegistus
Posts: 568
Joined: July 25th, 2020, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Location: New York City

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Belindi wrote: August 10th, 2020, 3:45 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 10th, 2020, 1:30 am
All the "gods" of Man (and note the scare quotes) are the stars of religious narratives about the nature of Divinity.
That God exists is almost certainly the case; what the nature of God is, is a mystery.
That's the role of religion in the world -- to unlock that mystery.

But unless you know "the nature of " it you can't know it exists.

For instance nobody knows what 6sgfhdje is , so how could anyone know it?
Our intuitions are clearly at odds here. As between the two propositions:
1. knowledge of the existence of x is logically and temporally prior to knowledge of the nature of x. (Angel)
2. knowledge of the nature of x is a necessary condition for knowledge of the existence of x. (Belindi)

Physical science and everyday common sense support #1, it seems to me.
Image
User avatar
Angel Trismegistus
Posts: 568
Joined: July 25th, 2020, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Location: New York City

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Belindi wrote: August 10th, 2020, 3:58 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 10th, 2020, 1:30 am
All the "gods" of Man (and note the scare quotes) are the stars of religious narratives about the nature of Divinity.
That God exists is almost certainly the case; what the nature of God is, is a mystery.
That's the role of religion in the world -- to unlock that mystery.

But unless you know "the nature of " anything you can't know it exists.

For instance nobody knows what 6sgfhdje is , so how could anyone know it?

To put it another way: one needs to be able to identify an elm tree before one can find an elm tree.
One needs to be able to identify food before one can find food.
You'd need to be able to identify a game of basket ball before you can find a game of basket ball.

You do not need to identify breathing before you can find breathing.
You do not have to be able to identify the digestion of food before you can digest your food.
However those are physiological unconscious processes . But God is not an unconscious physiological process.

God is the name of a star of a religious narrative , okay let's agree to that. What do all stars of all religious narratives have in common with each other, if anything?
See the post directly above this one.

We are aware of the existence of a tree before we identify it in any other way.

All the stars of religious narratives have in common the faith-based acceptance of their various natures.
Image
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Belindi »

Do you mean the idea of a tree is in the brain-mind of a person before they ever encounter a tree?
User avatar
Angel Trismegistus
Posts: 568
Joined: July 25th, 2020, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Location: New York City

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Belindi wrote: August 10th, 2020, 12:37 pm Do you mean the idea of a tree is in the brain-mind of a person before they ever encounter a tree?
No. I mean there is no idea of a tree, let alone knowledge of its type or nature, before the encounter with a tree.
Image
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Belindi »

Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 10th, 2020, 1:16 pm
Belindi wrote: August 10th, 2020, 12:37 pm Do you mean the idea of a tree is in the brain-mind of a person before they ever encounter a tree?
No. I mean there is no idea of a tree, let alone knowledge of its type or nature, before the encounter with a tree.
In that case, I agree.
User avatar
Angel Trismegistus
Posts: 568
Joined: July 25th, 2020, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Location: New York City

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Belindi wrote: August 11th, 2020, 7:47 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 10th, 2020, 1:16 pm
No. I mean there is no idea of a tree, let alone knowledge of its type or nature, before the encounter with a tree.
In that case, I agree.
I'm about to start a thread on this topic. It would please me greatly if you would join the discussion there.
Image
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by LuckyR »

Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 10th, 2020, 11:50 am
LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2020, 2:44 am

1) The universe exists
2) Humans are part of this universe
3) Humans create the concept of gods who are capable of superhuman powers of creation, yet are undetectable
4) When queried on proof of these undetectable entities, the answer is: "see #1"
Your "circle" is broken in two places, it seems to me. One, it conflates the existence of God and human conceptions of God. Two, it conflates two separate syllogisms: the syllogism reasoning from the universe to God and the syllogism reasoning from the existence of Man to stories about God.

But our exchange of posts has inspired me to start a thread on our bone of contention. I'll try to get it up today. I hope you will grace it with your views.
Uummm… since you are human and can thus only address things from that perspective, how can you (alone, perhaps?) differentiate between the two sides of the same coin you are trying to pass off as separate?
"As usual... it depends."
Jklint
Posts: 1719
Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Jklint »

...because that's like asking a vacuum to prove it exists.
User avatar
Angel Trismegistus
Posts: 568
Joined: July 25th, 2020, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Location: New York City

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

LuckyR wrote: August 13th, 2020, 11:10 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote: August 10th, 2020, 11:50 am
Your "circle" is broken in two places, it seems to me. One, it conflates the existence of God and human conceptions of God. Two, it conflates two separate syllogisms: the syllogism reasoning from the universe to God and the syllogism reasoning from the existence of Man to stories about God.

But our exchange of posts has inspired me to start a thread on our bone of contention. I'll try to get it up today. I hope you will grace it with your views.
Uummm… since you are human and can thus only address things from that perspective, how can you (alone, perhaps?) differentiate between the two sides of the same coin you are trying to pass off as separate?
I must say I'm disappointed that at this point we are not discussing this in the new thread you inspired me to start -- the thread I posted/submitted three days ago. Alas!

Anyway, you're right: I am only human and in the case in question made an unfortunate word choice in writing "conceptions" in that reply to you. The word "conception" is ambiguous as between (1) an idea in the mind and (2) the description under which that idea is considered. Your completely valid point depends on reading "conception" as in #1; the point I was making intended "conception" as in #2,

Mea culpa. I'll redouble my efforts at clarity and precision.
Image
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14942
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Sy Borg »

God is subjectivity itself, or nothing IMO.

We have looked everywhere else - from behind the lounge cushions to the alien realms of atoms and found only more stuff. When things are unexplained, it makes sense to use a placeholder term like - "quantum probability" or "dark energy" - in the expectation of finding more stuff, more reasons for things to be as they are.

Once you assume an unknown phenomena as a matter of "God dunnit", you limit inquiry, as would be the case with any premature assumption. On the other hand, when life feels dark and threatening, thinking of your calm inner core as "God" can aid emotional resolution, especially if inculcated in the tradition as a child. Different situations, different tools.

If religions explore the nature of God (or what people imagine to be God, which is the same thing, given the subjectivity argument above) then science explores God's works.

Or, viewed from a non-religious angle, religions explore aspects of the human psyche, while science explores that which the human psyche can comprehend, including aspects of itself.
Jklint
Posts: 1719
Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Jklint »

...because to do so requires god to exist.
Darshan
Posts: 174
Joined: February 16th, 2013, 9:11 pm

Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Darshan »

Earthellism answers why God doesn't prove himself. I believe John Lennon asked this question and could not get an appropriate answer in his lifetime. Many atheist like Bill Gates and Stephen Hawkins struggle with this question. The answer is that God only resides in Heaven and sends his love down here to earthell. Here on earthell, we cannot see God because God is not here. The love he sends here is proof God exists since God is the creator of all love. There is no love on the Sun or Mercury or Venus or Mars or Jupitar or Saturn.
Earthellism helps atheist believe in God because it solves the problem of evil.
God is not here but God absolutely exists in Heaven because Heaven is where God is which is not on earthell.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021