Why doesn't god prove himself?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Nitai
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Nitai »

This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
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LuckyR
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by LuckyR »

Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this relevation.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this revelation.
I'm guessing it's a peak experience. They are amazing, often life-changing, phenomena but they can be interpreted in variant ways. Some think it's being touched by God, others say it's just dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin. Some think it points to deeper aspects of reality and some say they are just cool artefacts of complex brains.
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Tegularius »

Sy Borg wrote: March 10th, 2021, 8:00 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this revelation.
I'm guessing it's a peak experience. They are amazing, often life-changing, phenomena but they can be interpreted in variant ways. Some think it's being touched by God, others say it's just dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin. Some think it points to deeper aspects of reality and some say they are just cool artefacts of complex brains.
All the above minus god.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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LuckyR
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by LuckyR »

Sy Borg wrote: March 10th, 2021, 8:00 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this revelation.
I'm guessing it's a peak experience. They are amazing, often life-changing, phenomena but they can be interpreted in variant ways. Some think it's being touched by God, others say it's just dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin. Some think it points to deeper aspects of reality and some say they are just cool artefacts of complex brains.
An excellent description of the subjective and objective aspects of the phenomenon.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by evolution »

Tegularius wrote: March 10th, 2021, 8:39 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 10th, 2021, 8:00 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this revelation.
I'm guessing it's a peak experience. They are amazing, often life-changing, phenomena but they can be interpreted in variant ways. Some think it's being touched by God, others say it's just dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin. Some think it points to deeper aspects of reality and some say they are just cool artefacts of complex brains.
All the above minus god.
Why, "minus god"?
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Nitai
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Nitai »

LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this relevation.
I don't know what you means.
But it is to be known that it is a complete science, a subtle science known since always, how to connect to the divine frequency. Nothing is hidden only the desire to know "Him" is missing.

Only when you come to that realm or perception can you start to understand.

If not it is like Dr. Frog trying to understand the vastness of the ocean in his tiny well. It is twice bigger ? 10 time bigger ?
We mesure according to what we know.
So it is not possible to comprehend or accept it without a prealable experience. It is beyond senses and intellect.
So what would be the use to describ the nature of the absolute. Actually it is already there, it is nothing hidden, only the eyes to see it are missing.
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Nitai
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Nitai »

Sy Borg wrote: March 10th, 2021, 8:00 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this revelation.
I'm guessing it's a peak experience. They are amazing, often life-changing, phenomena but they can be interpreted in variant ways. Some think it's being touched by God, others say it's just dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin. Some think it points to deeper aspects of reality and some say they are just cool artefacts of complex brains.
When it is speculative anything can be said about an experience, even if we have it.
The fact is that there is a science behind this, with a philosophical understanding underlying all of the differents aspects of existence. Not just matter but also the self and the cause of both. If not this spark of meaning that brought philosophy and the continious ongoing search for unending happiness would not exist.

But this science is only for those who have a sincere and strong desire for truth and beauty.

Just like a real master teach to who is eager to know with the right attitude.
The problem is when we are too much intoxicated by material sense gratification it is not seen even in front of us.

Everyone is free to continue his search of happiness without God . That is Love. [/quote]
That sounds rather grandiose. I just think of it as simply wanting to understand what is going on. Beauty is easy to find, at least for me in this lucky life; all I need to do is go to the dog park or walking in the bush, or by foreshores. Or just look out from my back steps at sunset. Or play some music.

Truth - what is real - though, is another matter. When I was young, I found the endless claims and counter claims worrying. Everyone seemed so sure of their position, yet they claimed diametrically opposite things. So I became interested in statistics, a way of working out what was going on more reliably than for agenda-driven humans. I became interested in Eastern religion and wisdom. And moved on again. I do not want efficacious ideas or stories or opinions, I want hard facts or I want speculation that admits that it's speculative nature.

The inability of science to properly prove subjective reality throws a spanner in the works, though, a la Nagel. A huge chunk of reality - the subjective experiences of life forms - is inaccessible, only available via observation of its effects, inferences and extrapolations of our own experiences.

My guess is that quantum mechanics is a key aspect of conscious experience but one gets in trouble for spreading "quantum woo", so I tend to keep those speculations to myself. Cancelled, if you will :)


Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 amAfter we can battle in many arguments about life's condition and the meaning of it, but if we think we can know by our own means then our conditioned mind is our master, how a bonded person can free himself ? so good luck to them.
If we take an higher authority it is already intelligence, but if this master have himself his conditioned mind as master the problem is still there.

I am not selling anything speculative. I just trying to convey old subtle science to people who are eager to.
I would say that it's not so much the "conditioned mind" that is the master as the ego. People want to feel informed, that they have some idea what's going on, but we don't know all that much. How impressed with our knowledge and understanding will be post-humans in 10,000 years' time? What of highly advanced beings a millions years ahead of us - consider how much they would know about the nature of reality compared with us!

So there must be tonnes of knowledge ahead of us but, since we need to deal with life at this place and time, many treat what they know as real. Without that confidence, people can struggle to be decisive, unable to decide what is right. So take the risk of committing to ideas and treating them as real, even when they realistically have no way of knowing. It's an easy risk given that there is no "punishment" for having wrong beliefs, often the contrary. Many who believed in all manner of fantastical deities have lived happy, fulfilled lives. Many who completely dismiss all deities have also enjoyed happy, fulfilling lives.

So "What is actually real?" tends to not be a useful question when it comes to living the good life, which is no doubt why so many don't think about it. For whatever reason, people like us are curious to understand more.

I defer to higher "authorities" too - the Earth and the Sun, of which we each are just a tiny part - just that I don't see those bodies as exerting authority like a human, but exerting control within hierarchic systems that tend towards equilibrium, which includes occasional major events after internal buildups reach certain thresholds and result in a state change, eg. solar flares, storms, volcanoes, earthquakes.
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LuckyR
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by LuckyR »

Nitai wrote: March 11th, 2021, 4:42 am
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this relevation.
I don't know what you means.
But it is to be known that it is a complete science, a subtle science known since always, how to connect to the divine frequency. Nothing is hidden only the desire to know "Him" is missing.

Only when you come to that realm or perception can you start to understand.

If not it is like Dr. Frog trying to understand the vastness of the ocean in his tiny well. It is twice bigger ? 10 time bigger ?
We mesure according to what we know.
So it is not possible to comprehend or accept it without a prealable experience. It is beyond senses and intellect.
So what would be the use to describ the nature of the absolute. Actually it is already there, it is nothing hidden, only the eyes to see it are missing.
Science, eh? Something tells me you aren't a scientist. Sounds pretty circular: you have to know the secret handshake to get into the club.
"As usual... it depends."
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Nitai
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Nitai »

LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 1:51 am
Nitai wrote: March 11th, 2021, 4:42 am
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:29 pm
Nitai wrote: March 10th, 2021, 2:08 am This question rise due to the ignorance of our coming here.
This ignorance is due to the same desire of our being here.

This world is a manifestation of your will to be separated from God. So "He" will break your possibility to believe in the illusory independancy of "Him" if "He" do that (proving "Himself" to the all). But God is willing to reveal to you if you really want to. It is a personal choice.
Please describe the nature of this relevation.
I don't know what you means.
But it is to be known that it is a complete science, a subtle science known since always, how to connect to the divine frequency. Nothing is hidden only the desire to know "Him" is missing.

Only when you come to that realm or perception can you start to understand.

If not it is like Dr. Frog trying to understand the vastness of the ocean in his tiny well. It is twice bigger ? 10 time bigger ?
We mesure according to what we know.
So it is not possible to comprehend or accept it without a prealable experience. It is beyond senses and intellect.
So what would be the use to describ the nature of the absolute. Actually it is already there, it is nothing hidden, only the eyes to see it are missing.
Science, eh? Something tells me you aren't a scientist. Sounds pretty circular: you have to know the secret handshake to get into the club.
There is subtle science the instrument is not the microscope but your consciousness directly.
So there is a theory, now it is up to you to make the experiment given by ancient wisdom.
I can disbelieve hydrogen and oxygen make water but if a scientiste show me the process and I make it, I will experience the result.
So it is the same method, ancients scriptures give a theory and a process to make the experiment. So if someone is really serious about it he take a teacher who knows how to do it and test by himself in the good condition. And the result is already shown in the conduct and qualities of masters, just as a gardener can show it's luxuriant garden.
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runaway
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by runaway »

My theory about why God would chose not to prove his existence because he feels that only those who believe in him in spite of inconclusive evidence are worth saving. However I have always thought that this was an unfair criteria to meet to achieve salvation because people who are generally more objective and sceptical will be at a disadvantage in achieving salvation even though they are not necessarily any less moral as a person.
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LuckyR
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by LuckyR »

runaway wrote: March 12th, 2021, 8:13 am My theory about why God would chose not to prove his existence because he feels that only those who believe in him in spite of inconclusive evidence are worth saving. However I have always thought that this was an unfair criteria to meet to achieve salvation because people who are generally more objective and sceptical will be at a disadvantage in achieving salvation even though they are not necessarily any less moral as a person.
That is a reasonable view, though a simpler, more externally consistent one is that there are no cloud fairies.
"As usual... it depends."
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runaway
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by runaway »

LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 12:30 pm
runaway wrote: March 12th, 2021, 8:13 am My theory about why God would chose not to prove his existence because he feels that only those who believe in him in spite of inconclusive evidence are worth saving. However I have always thought that this was an unfair criteria to meet to achieve salvation because people who are generally more objective and sceptical will be at a disadvantage in achieving salvation even though they are not necessarily any less moral as a person.
That is a reasonable view, though a simpler, more externally consistent one is that there are no cloud fairies.
That’s the conclusion I ended up arriving at. I thought that if a God truly was fair, then Salvation would not be based simply on “Do you believe in me? Yes or no?” as different people have different life experiences that make them more hopeful/hopeless about existence and some people are more logical and evidence-based in their thinking. Since the requirement to achieve salvation is more achievable for some people than it is for others, it follows that God cannot be wholly fair. Since God is shown to not be perfectly fair, it casts a lot of doubt as to whether a perfect God who has faultless morality actually exists.
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Levimacey
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Levimacey »

I think we need to reflect here, firstly God(s) is a symbolism of a set of structured guidance that has come to man through scriptures and also prophets or messengers. messengers brought miracles, prophets brought books or scriptures, these have been parallel with human evolution. the dates pre date 1000s of years and have been apart of the harts of millions all around the world. these beliefs are very much imbedded in their lives, this also influences society and groups of identities, like Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. All of which teach within their theology's that God is the all powerful and creator of the heavens and the earth including humans. This is the basic concept for God, however its very difficult for those who are sceptical of such subject to be able join the understanding of a believer, so i think its best to try to ask a question that i hope will answer the question above,

do you really believe that the natural world with it complex design and constant evolution without human impute is just there for nothing, it has no purpose just like humans that we are just here to live and die with no objective at all?

this question is hard to answer but rational thinking would suggest that design and intellect is used in man made object, then does the natural world with such complex designs have the same intelligence and design, this a question you can research more in John Hume's work 'Dialogue concerning natural religion' Hume's argument from design will give you very interesting over view of this subject. however from a religious perspective just look around you everything in the humanly made world has it origins in the natural world, glass made from sand, clothes made from cotton plants the man made world could never evolve without the natural world and it constant evolution. so for believer everything in nature is GODS work this is his proof the evolution is God. the question seems to be related and i apologies if incorrect, to the physical proof of God, even if the clouds open up tomorrow and a loud voice spoke to us all, this question would still be being asked.

proof of God is in the hearts of toughs who embrace it, for those who don't, they don't see it and for those who just accept that all of this world is just what it is they are not effected by it. However God is the very symbolism of the natural world, then who creates the earthquakes, who create the volcanoes that erupt, who controls the sun the moon the spinning of the earth, can this really just do what it does without intelligence, without design, a question ill leave you ponder over. But to answer the question, Gods proof is ever wear, in every thing, some can see it some can not and some don't want to.
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Re: Why doesn't god prove himself?

Post by Charlemagne »

cynicallyinsane wrote: March 5th, 2007, 11:07 am If there is a god, why doesn't he prove that he exists? Why does he leave us without any compelling evidence of his existence?
What kind of proof would you accept? That he should appear to you in person?

He tried that 2,000 years ago and the skeptics still were not convinced.
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