Is religion good even if it's false?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by LuckyR »

Belinda wrote:Religious myths are historically false but sometimes express themes that are true enough. The same can be said for any important literature or other art form.

Religious organisations are good in the sense that man often cannot act unless the actions are orchestrated by leaders of the community of belief and practise. Therefore religions in their heyday could get people to do good as well as bad.

Religious organisations are bad when they idolise money, ritual, hypocrisy, persons, things, institutions, and beliefs. Idolatry makes people stupidly set in their ways.
While I agree with your list of religious negatives you are missing the elephant in the room, namely the attitude of organized religion towards nonbelievers.

-- Updated October 16th, 2015, 1:16 pm to add the following --
Lucylu wrote:
LuckyR wrote:Thus the societal superiority of philosophy to organized religion. All the benefits of the "love of god" you mntioned without the convert the heathens (which comes out of the hellfire and damnation part).
Philosophy is essentially more 'vanilla' and mature than religion though, and humans do like excitement. As I was saying recently, in another thread, the trouble with being pure and good is that its boring. So, perhaps society will always desire the drama of faith, as it just seems much more visceral and intoxicating than reading philosophy texts. Plus, if you think about it, religion has built in social meet ups and parties to take a break from the more sombre parts so you get excitement without the need for any physical exertion.

I sometimes wonder too, if religion was created just because people didn't have tele or electricity or the printing press! Can you imagine how boring it must have been if your only entertainment was each other and story telling. Its no wonder the stories got bigger and bigger, until they were literally 'out of this world'. A lot of dark, miserable nights to fill.
Again, I agree with your post but would be remiss not to point towards a different, very large draw of organized religion, namely the declaration of superiority of the flock above heathens. "We're going to eternal salvation, you guys, OTOH are going to hellfire and damnation, so it doesn't matter if we take your land and put you guys: A) to death, or B) into slavery or C) onto reservations." Whoohoo.
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Lambert
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Post by Lambert »

pjkeeley wrote:
Relegion can do it and can build bridges between cultures.
Religion doesn't build bridges between cultures; it creates unnecessary conflict between them. How many wars have been fought in the name of religion? Centuries of warfare, some of which is still going on today.

Religion is a terrible thing.
The problem is that life belongs to the mythology and we are just servants in that. So we can be either a servant or we are a freeloader in life. History will tell us that never a civilization has emerged nor survived without a religion in force and they all have a law in function that is known as the heart of the mythology. So there is a reason for religion to be.
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Belinda »

LuckyR wrote:


(Belinda had written)
Religious organisations are bad when they idolise money, ritual, hypocrisy, persons, things, institutions, and beliefs. Idolatry makes people stupidly set in their ways.


(LuckyR replied)While I agree with your list of religious negatives you are missing the elephant in the room, namely the attitude of organized religion towards nonbelievers.
I wrote "beliefs " in the list of why religions are bad. Perhaps "arrogant beliefs" beliefs would have been better. I am sure that some otherwise good friendships are blighted by the religious person's arrogance.
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Lucylu »

LuckyR wrote:Again, I agree with your post but would be remiss not to point towards a different, very large draw of organized religion, namely the declaration of superiority of the flock above heathens. "We're going to eternal salvation, you guys, OTOH are going to hellfire and damnation, so it doesn't matter if we take your land and put you guys: A) to death, or B) into slavery or C) onto reservations." Whoohoo.
I would say that the marketing of religion is pretty advanced and all encompassing. Just as a large company today, say Ralph Lauren for example, may design a range of women's clothes, men's clothes, sportswear, casual wear, children's wear, and even baby clothes and fragrances, all under the same brand name, so too a religion has adapted to include everyone. Perhaps to necessarily include the younger men, full of testosterone, they included stories of fights to the death and holy wars, which are (lets face it) more energizing than "do you feel like going over there and making friends with these guys because it rains more there and their potatoes are bigger".

The other side of the coin is, as you say, that then you have a range of nutters, murdering or hating in the name of religion. I was thinking about this today, and was reminded that, to her dying day my grandmother hated all Germans, even German children. To her, Germans and Nazis were synonymous- no exceptions. I would hate to be like that and say that religious people are all arrogant. I know that's not what you were saying, and I definitely know what you're talking about but its easy to start generalising. They can hardly help it if they have grown up in a culture where church, schools, and state are all inextricably linked (and when breaking them apart causes civil war). But those that can help it are probably just insecure, such as the 'spiritual but not religious' box tickers. My point is that there will always be people who use a given structure or tradition or text as an excuse for their own hatred of whatever. You just have to minimise the risk as much as possible.

I do have to wonder though- I know that it has been a long time and the people of 2000 years ago when the Bible was written were not as educated as we are now, but I find it hard to believe that the elders of the group didn't note these very same problems. How can God love us, but also hate this other group we haven't even met? How can they have another God that they think is the 'One' and we think the same? Isn't it better to be nice to them so that they will like us and share their land, rather than go to war? Its just common sense. Religion just seems so hysterical and fearful.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Lambert »

Lucylu wrote:
LuckyR wrote:Again, I agree with your post but would be remiss not to point towards a different, very large draw of organized religion, namely the declaration of superiority of the flock above heathens. "We're going to eternal salvation, you guys, OTOH are going to hellfire and damnation, so it doesn't matter if we take your land and put you guys: A) to death, or B) into slavery or C) onto reservations." Whoohoo.
//

I do have to wonder though- I know that it has been a long time and the people of 2000 years ago when the Bible was written were not as educated as we are now, but I find it hard to believe that the elders of the group didn't note these very same problems. How can God love us, but also hate this other group we haven't even met? How can they have another God that they think is the 'One' and we think the same? Isn't it better to be nice to them so that they will like us and share their land, rather than go to war? Its just common sense. Religion just seems so hysterical and fearful.
Not sure if you will go along with this, but I actually think that the bible is more like pig feed that is needed to feed the wolves because they are needed too. In Judaism (OT) they would be like the Pharisees and in Catholicism (NT) they would be called the Christians. They both are be bible thumping legalists who are able to nurse the Lamb of God, and that cannot be done by the Orthodox Jew or Catholic for whom tradition is the only way to go. In Buddhism this would be much like Mahayana as opposite to [Conservative] Theravada in their way to that same end. Muslims are much the same between Sufi and Sunni, and most likely all mythologies will have these opposites in force.

The best way to present this may be like the "Rich Man's table" parable where Lazarus would be the Orthodox Jew and Catholic.

So now the question really becomes: "good for what?"

And btw, have you never heard the pope say: "peace be with you and do not fight?"
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Wilson »

The answer to the original question is that some religions, at some periods in time, can civilize their believers, and that some religions can, at some periods in time, lead to horrific atrocities. So nowadays religion in the Western world can cause some individuals to behave in morally responsible ways that are not natural to them. But of course it's also true that Islam today causes some of its adherents to believe that mass murder is morally righteous if directed toward non-believers. And Christianity in the past spurred religious wars and the Inquisition.

Mixed bag, without question.
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Lambert »

Wilson wrote:The answer to the original question is that some religions, at some periods in time, can civilize their believers, and that some religions can, at some periods in time, lead to horrific atrocities. So nowadays religion in the Western world can cause some individuals to behave in morally responsible ways that are not natural to them. But of course it's also true that Islam today causes some of its adherents to believe that mass murder is morally righteous if directed toward non-believers. And Christianity in the past spurred religious wars and the Inquisition.

Mixed bag, without question.
Yes Wilson, but those self proclaimed Christians have been bombing countries ever since they had their own right to be, and they deserve each other I would say.

Just read what the "Seven Mountain Mandate" is about and that should explain it all. http://www.the7mountains.com/

And please know that "Is-ra-el" means "one-with-God" and is not a peace of land for their Jesus to come back, and that is what all those wars have been about, for centuries now, and they will never end, . . . on top of which the West is nearly broke in fighting them, and this all because they read those passages wrong?

Ask me and I will show you how they should be read.

-- Updated October 18th, 2015, 3:45 pm to add the following --

And sorry, the Inquisition may have been a national event during the days that those countries were Catholic, and all they were doing then is keep the wolves as individuals because they were needed then as I showed you above.

So they had freedom to believe what they believed, but were not allowed to scatter the flock and that is what the Inquisitor was all about.

Please know that the mythology is for the survival and prosperity of the tribe. That still is true today and always will be true because eternal life belongs to the mythology . . . wherefore then both [Sunni] Muslims and [protestant] Christians must die before good times can begin. And do you not see a contraction here, as in fight until you die?

-- Updated October 18th, 2015, 10:08 pm to add the following --
Lucylu wrote:
LuckyR wrote:Again, I agree with your post but would be remiss not to point towards a different, very large draw of organized religion, namely the declaration of superiority of the flock above heathens. "We're going to eternal salvation, you guys, OTOH are going to hellfire and damnation, so it doesn't matter if we take your land and put you guys: A) to death, or B) into slavery or C) onto reservations." Whoohoo.
I have some good news for you here and tell you that it takes courage to walk away from many or most protestant religions in that an investment is required to belong to many or most of them. It often takes behavior modification, devotion, time spend on bible study so that one can measure up to what is expected to be a member in good standing, and that often includes tithing to the tune of 10 %. Opposite this in Catholicism tradition counts for most and tithing merely is meant to be time spend and once we know enough we can just stay home because salvation is not part of it with no expectations ever made except as sinner maybe.

Then, the good news really is that the John of Matthew and Mark, who was to be the Christ in the very end when Jesus died with "Mother there is your son," and "Son, there is your mother" (standing right next to you below the cross on which Jesus died). And please note that he wore a camelhair coat to show that tradition was no part of him (cf. John's birth narrative in Luke 1), and therefore his mother was not there = he had no mother and was "from his mother's womb untimely ripped."

This precisely is the reason why Matthew and Mark's Jesus went back to Galilee again after he rose from the[ego] death, and that very well means hell on earth for him and also all those self proclaimed Christians who must physically die before good times can begin. Please remember here that as follower of Jesus, the Jesus in them must also die and for this a protestant is needed because a Catholic can not do such thing to him without a passage ever read.

In fact, long story short, they are galloping into hell that at one time was called the height of slavery (to righteousness).
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Belinda »

LucyLu wrote:
I would say that the marketing of religion is pretty advanced and all encompassing. Just as a large company today, say Ralph Lauren for example, may design a range of women's clothes, men's clothes, sportswear, casual wear, children's wear, and even baby clothes and fragrances, all under the same brand name, so too a religion has adapted to include everyone. Perhaps to necessarily include the younger men, full of testosterone, they included stories of fights to the death and holy wars, which are (lets face it) more energizing than "do you feel like going over there and making friends with these guys because it rains more there and their potatoes are bigger".
Seems to me that Christianity is like Ralph Lauren brand, a moveable icon, because Christianity is founded upon a man who was an actual historical event, whatever the believers claim about the divinity of Jesus/ Christ. A man's life can be interpreted more variously than can a holy book.

It follows that the varieties of Christianity which rely upon Bible literalism are similar to varieties of Islam which rely upon Koran literalism. So Humanists and supporters of human rights have to contend with Christians who are unable to adapt their beliefs to a modern world and also Wahhabi/Salafist Muslims in Saudi Arabia who idolise their literal interpretation of the Koran. In both cases human rights are rubbished. If the Gospel is to be believed, Jesus placed human rights above religious literalism when He advised his disciples that the Sabbath is for the good of men, not men for the good of the Sabbath.
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Lambert »

Belinda wrote:LucyLu wrote:
I would say that the marketing of religion is pretty advanced and all encompassing. Just as a large company today, say Ralph Lauren for example, may design a range of women's clothes, men's clothes, sportswear, casual wear, children's wear, and even baby clothes and fragrances, all under the same brand name, so too a religion has adapted to include everyone. Perhaps to necessarily include the younger men, full of testosterone, they included stories of fights to the death and holy wars, which are (lets face it) more energizing than "do you feel like going over there and making friends with these guys because it rains more there and their potatoes are bigger".
Seems to me that Christianity is like Ralph Lauren brand, a moveable icon, because Christianity is founded upon a man who was an actual historical event, whatever the believers claim about the divinity of Jesus/ Christ. A man's life can be interpreted more variously than can a holy book.

It follows that the varieties of Christianity which rely upon Bible literalism are similar to varieties of Islam which rely upon Koran literalism. So Humanists and supporters of human rights have to contend with Christians who are unable to adapt their beliefs to a modern world and also Wahhabi/Salafist Muslims in Saudi Arabia who idolise their literal interpretation of the Koran. In both cases human rights are rubbished. If the Gospel is to be believed, Jesus placed human rights above religious literalism when He advised his disciples that the Sabbath is for the good of men, not men for the good of the Sabbath.
Underline is mine.

Nice warp Belinda and you are so right. There is one passage that Christians will never remember and that is the only one they should know: "You search the scriptures in which you think you have eternal life -- they testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life" (Jn. 5:39-40).

And just so you know, Jesus was the speaker in the Gospels and Christ never said a word and not even one. Christ actually was the sleeper in him and therefore Jesus needed to die, but not until after the shepherds were uploaded into the upper room (that we call our right) so that reason will prevail when we take up residence there. Note here that the shepherds where Joseph's telic visions each with sheep of their own and they were 'on the run' when Christ was born unto him. That so became the final round of samsara with no more dukkha for him, and to bring that about the ego that there is called Jesus must be crucified in our mythology.

Notice that Jesus is also known as second Adam in us who's role-play here is to do away with the first, and crucifixion is just symptomatic to re-route sense perception again so that pain can be no more and good health will be ours until we die, at least so they say, . . . and he was historical they say?
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Opinionator »

Falsehood is never a good thing. We should always seek to dwell in a place as close to the truth as possible. Truth is reality. Reality is how things actually exist free from bias and lies. We should all want to be as real as possible.
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by LuckyR »

I don't totally disagree with the rationalization that those who were/are religiously jingoistic might very well have expressed those xenophobic tendancies in a different way if organized religion did not exist. However, IMO it is overly simplistic to not recognize the additional hold that religious orators have over their believers than say political speakers have (on average) over their countrymen.
"As usual... it depends."
Lambert
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Lambert »

LuckyR wrote:I don't totally disagree with the rationalization that those who were/are religiously jingoistic might very well have expressed those xenophobic tendancies in a different way if organized religion did not exist. However, IMO it is overly simplistic to not recognize the additional hold that religious orators have over their believers than say political speakers have (on average) over their countrymen.
That is where truth would help a lot in which agreement can be found with other mythologies, for which evidence instead of hostile showmanship would have the final say while bombing others countries already is evidence that they lack the insight needed to be universal as the leading edge of life with them.

And I understand that it is hard to accept that Israel should never be a piece of land, but the fact remains that messianic Jews are also Jesus worshipers, like Christians, and that creates a great divide now also in Israel. And of course they will win but must pay for that with money and with lives until the we crash as the great West that at one time was only Catholic.

Note here that the Church is big enough in wisdom to take all minor mythologies under her wings (very much like a mother hen does with her chicks), but not if Freedom of Religion is a Constitutional Right for them.

And btw, the only hold they have is better days ahead after they die and that gives them hope as Christian, while hope itself already is the enemy that contradicts the position they hold and therefore must advocate to substantiate . . . that these days also looks like salvation on high heels instead of simple red shoes. I.e, woman does not get crucified (regardless of what Chaim Potok thinks in "My Name is Asher Lev").
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Engineer0RQ1 »

My answer would be yes.

If an idea or meme group such as a religion lasts for so many years it must give it's followers a benefit or it would become extinct in the same way that life forms and the gene groups that create them must contribute to the organism's success or become extinct.

In my opinion a meme group does not have to be true to survive it simply has to benefit the individual.
Chris

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Lambert
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Lambert »

Engineer0RQ1 wrote:My answer would be yes.

If an idea or meme group such as a religion lasts for so many years it must give it's followers a benefit or it would become extinct in the same way that life forms and the gene groups that create them must contribute to the organism's success or become extinct.

In my opinion a meme group does not have to be true to survive it simply has to benefit the individual.
It is true that religion builds the tribe and if that is true it must also be true that religion tears it down, and if you don't me saying so, that is why they ran Rene Descartes out of France with his Cogito Ergo Sum because that is something religion cannot afford to be true.
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Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Engineer0RQ1 »

Hi Lambert

Descartes may have been a victim of bigotry and intellectual rigidity but societies and religious viewpoints do evolve over the long term and in my opinion the ideas Descartes was expounding have eventually triumphed.

To illustrate this I would put forward the Church of England and my experiences as a member of it's congregation. My vicar is a lovely lady by the name of Vivian whose whole approach is based upon the group and helping her congregation to see how prayer and Christian theology benefits people. This very tolerant aproach has far more to do with modern commercial management practices than religious dogma.

The scienfific method that devoloped from the ideas of Descartes and other intellectuals at around the same time has proved itself. This can be seen in my church's practical adaptation of it's intellectual landscape and the recognition of it's responsibilities in a multicultural nation.

This was not the case for Descartes and leads me to ask: Is there a natural hierarchy that exists to provide physical and intellectual context?

In fact I think I will create my first ever post to explore this issue.
Chris

An engineer by philosophy, opinion and action.
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