Is religion good even if it's false?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
Lambert
Posts: 1061
Joined: January 19th, 2015, 11:55 am

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Lambert »

Engineer0RQ1 wrote:Hi Lambert

Descartes may have been a victim of bigotry and intellectual rigidity but societies and religious viewpoints do evolve over the long term and in my opinion the ideas Descartes was expounding have eventually triumphed.

To illustrate this I would put forward the Church of England and my experiences as a member of it's congregation. My vicar is a lovely lady by the name of Vivian whose whole approach is based upon the group and helping her congregation to see how prayer and Christian theology benefits people. This very tolerant aproach has far more to do with modern commercial management practices than religious dogma.

The scienfific method that devoloped from the ideas of Descartes and other intellectuals at around the same time has proved itself. This can be seen in my church's practical adaptation of it's intellectual landscape and the recognition of it's responsibilities in a multicultural nation.

This was not the case for Descartes and leads me to ask: Is there a natural hierarchy that exists to provide physical and intellectual context?

In fact I think I will create my first ever post to explore this issue.
Yes, religious viewpoints do evolve but that does not benefit the civilization except as a social club, and that is exactly what religion is not about. And true enough, "I think therefore I am" means that the thinker is real while the thinker is not real in Being, and as thinker is just an add-on to man much like the ego is known to be.

And also true is that intelligence instead of dogma is better for commercial management practices. That has always been true, but all you will ever have is mediocre people with no upper level management insights to reach for the top.

Leaving this aside, the mythology/religion is needed for the survival and also the prosperity of the tribe, and so now, your multicultural nation is already a sell-out of the purpose for which it was designed, and I wonder why this would be so. Not enough babies maybe? Or do we not have time for the family anymore because we are both working these days.
User avatar
Jam2289
New Trial Member
Posts: 14
Joined: September 7th, 2012, 1:53 pm

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Jam2289 »

Even if someone were to believe in a god, it wouldn't align with most other gods that have existed throughout history, there are thousands. So you could look at it historically. Has this or that previous society benefited from their belief in this or that mythology? You could ask this in more contemporary settings as well, and it would attract more attention, mostly anger. The substance that is lacking in your question concerns definition and context. You would have to define what good is, and then we would have to evaluate it in a context, which we can now do historically with the reformatted question I posed earlier.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13821
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Belinda »

Jam2289 wrote:Even if someone were to believe in a god, it wouldn't align with most other gods that have existed throughout history, there are thousands. So you could look at it historically. Has this or that previous society benefited from their belief in this or that mythology? You could ask this in more contemporary settings as well, and it would attract more attention, mostly anger. The substance that is lacking in your question concerns definition and context. You would have to define what good is, and then we would have to evaluate it in a context, which we can now do historically with the reformatted question I posed earlier.
Very good angle! :D

Again, I want to extend Jam2289's argument and apply it to contemporary dilemmas. For instance Angela Merkel's mercy and human kindness, those qualities of Jesus, have rebounded upon her and all decent Germans from the fear, anger, greed, stupidity, and inhumanity of those men reportedly of Arab or North African appearance who terrorised women in German cities on New Year's Eve. Merkel and Germany is now are forced to abandon their simple Christian mercy and human kindness and impose strict immigration regulation upon refugees. True to say that a few rotten apples infect the whole barrel. However social scientists must be enrolled by politicians in the search for a solution to the crisis in the Middle East which is complicated by trade links, old internal quarrels, and in the case of refugees by nasty ethnic notions about the status of women that are bound to clash with decent Western sensibilities.

If we re-examine Jam's sentence
Has this or that previous society benefited from their belief in this or that mythology?

and apply it to cultural difference we see that it's not Islam that is the rogue mythology but certain ethnic attitudes which may or may not be hopelessly intertwined with that religious myth.
Socialist
Granth
Posts: 2084
Joined: July 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Granth »

Islam mythology, it seems to me, is most definitely roguish. It has to be looked at as a whole. Not just bits from it. On the whole it is roguish.

-- Updated January 11th, 2016, 6:29 pm to add the following --
Lambert wrote:

Yes, religious viewpoints do evolve but that does not benefit the civilization except as a social club, and that is exactly what religion is not about.
A healthier politics would be to see religions as various social clubs. For example, there should not be bishops in The House of Lords in positions for political decision making and the media should not, as they do, seek Papal opinion on world events. Our currently unhealthy state of politics, and a media that seek religious views on worldly and scientific subjects that are not to do with, say, the Pope's particular social club that he is club president of (Catholicism), is ADOLESCENT, and we should know by now how an adolescent brain works in terms of it's limitations.
Philosch
Posts: 429
Joined: July 25th, 2012, 3:42 pm

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Philosch »

If a religion is "false" then it's by definition "not true", then the answer is very simple in a world that values truth. It's not the same question as asking whether certain religions have ever done good works. What you asked is "Is religion good even if it's false?" and therefore the answer must be no, it is not good, any such good it inadvertently produces could be obtained by "other" social structures that were not based on a false idea.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Grunth »

Religion is, in many ways, a killer. Consider the departed artist Prince? He apparently required hip surgery or replacement. However his religion instructed that he must not receive blood via transfusion. Consequently, it appears, he became addicted to prescription pain killers to address an otherwise surgically fixable condition. His beliefs killed him.
User avatar
Ormond
Posts: 932
Joined: December 30th, 2015, 8:14 pm

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Ormond »

Religion is far too large a phenomena to be labeled with simplistic terms like good and bad. Some aspects of religion are good, some are bad, and most of it is somewhere in between in the complex middle, as is usually the case.

Discussion of fatally flawed questions tends to be mostly pointless. Which is bigger, the color blue or the sound of an oboe? How much time should we invest in that question?
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
Simplyhuman
Posts: 37
Joined: April 9th, 2016, 9:44 am

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Simplyhuman »

If we assume there is a god(s). Considering that there are thousands of religions in the world. That would mean that at best, only one is correct. Maybe not even one, if none of them have actually nailed down the true message that this God has intended. So by default, all religions could be considered false.

So now the question becomes, is religion good or bad?

Well, that is based on what the individual uses the said religion for... If that belief system is strictly used to apply morals and striving for a better version of oneself, then I would say that religion is good for that individual. But if that individual uses religion to inflict harm in the name of God or con the vulnerable out of money, then for that individual the existence of religion is bad.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Grunth »

Simplyhuman wrote:If we assume there is a god(s). Considering that there are thousands of religions in the world. That would mean that at best, only one is correct. Maybe not even one, if none of them have actually nailed down the true message that this God has intended. So by default, all religions could be considered false.

So now the question becomes, is religion good or bad?

Well, that is based on what the individual uses the said religion for... If that belief system is strictly used to apply morals and striving for a better version of oneself, then I would say that religion is good for that individual. But if that individual uses religion to inflict harm in the name of God or con the vulnerable out of money, then for that individual the existence of religion is bad.
If religions are false then they are bad. If we are good because of the false religion then we are good for bad reasons. The 'good' due a bad reason makes such a 'good' a fragile 'good'. By fragile I mean that for the 'good' to be maintained would require all the conditions, all circumstances, to remain stable and utterly predictable. But life and humans are just not like that. Life does not arrange itself to accommodate one view utterly. For such a reason, such a religion, such a good, to actually work would require the extermination of all other spontaneously arising conditions and other arising concepts or philosophies.

A 'good' for a bad reason (the bad reason being a false religion with its, therefore, assumed and imaginary god) is a 'good' achieved through no lesson and through no dialog with, or consideration of, any other view. Such a religion, then, would be pure. We should all realize by now how assumptions of purity lead to totalitarian ideals.

Because there is no ultimate ideals for the entire world of peoples, it is reasonable for nations to have very strict borders and border controls so that if one wants to change countries one should also be prepared to change their culture. This idea would still allow for tourism and trade, but alas it is rather too late for my idea. In hindsight though, it would work.....in my not necessarily humble opinion.
Simplyhuman
Posts: 37
Joined: April 9th, 2016, 9:44 am

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Simplyhuman »

Grunth wrote:If religions are false then they are bad. If we are good because of the false religion then we are good for bad reasons.
False does not necessarily equal bad. Ignorant, but not bad if they truly believe what they have been fed. If someone is too closed minded to ask questions and realize that they are devoting their life to being lied to... Well that's their problem. But if that person is just going about their day and not causing any harm, then I don't really care what they do to worship their God.

My personal opinion is that all religions are false, therefore I don't take part it them. But that's my opinion. I got to this point because I asked questions. The "teachers" of any religion that I questioned never had a valid thought to back up their stories. It all came down to "well, it's written right here in this man made text". If others chose not to ask the question, live within a 'security' that they've been taught; I don't see the harm as long as they are no worse on society than their neighbors.

In short, I don't think that false always translates to bad. If an individual truly believes something, then to that person, it is true. Whether a "God" agrees or not, the true/false is subjective to the would be believer.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Grunth »

Simplyhuman wrote:
Grunth wrote:If religions are false then they are bad. If we are good because of the false religion then we are good for bad reasons.
False does not necessarily equal bad. Ignorant, but not bad if they truly believe what they have been fed. If someone is too closed minded to ask questions and realize that they are devoting their life to being lied to... Well that's their problem. But if that person is just going about their day and not causing any harm, then I don't really care what they do to worship their God.

My personal opinion is that all religions are false, therefore I don't take part it them. But that's my opinion. I got to this point because I asked questions. The "teachers" of any religion that I questioned never had a valid thought to back up their stories. It all came down to "well, it's written right here in this man made text". If others chose not to ask the question, live within a 'security' that they've been taught; I don't see the harm as long as they are no worse on society than their neighbors.

In short, I don't think that false always translates to bad. If an individual truly believes something, then to that person, it is true. Whether a "God" agrees or not, the true/false is subjective to the would be believer.
Those whom commit atrocities are those who believe in absurdities.

-- Updated May 27th, 2016, 7:51 pm to add the following --

If you see Buddha, kill him.
User avatar
Platonymous
Posts: 8
Joined: September 21st, 2015, 11:26 am

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Platonymous »

philoreaderguy wrote:I recently was told by someone that religion is a good thing even if it is false. He said that it's good because it brings people together and teaches morality. Is this true? Is religion good for people even if it isn't false?
What you are effectively talking about is Santa Clause. Religious morals and the fear of death or damnation might not work on children as well, given their underdeveloped understanding of the topic, so the more simplified reward based Santa Clause version is used as a way to encourage certain behaviors. In the same vein, a religion could be seen as a way to push morals, laws, and behaviors on a group of people who would be seen as incapable of understanding the benefit of for exp. social behaviors for it's own merit. It is easy to see how religion worked as a predecessor to our common law, and why in ancient times law and religion were often linked.

One might say "Thou shall not kill" and the villager might answer "Why not, he called my wife a goat". Clearly pointing to the wrath of god could be seen as a better strategy than trying to explain to him how unfettered killings among a group would be harmful to the group, even if one might think another deserves to be murdered for disrespecting him, and why even in cases where a killing seemed in order it should not be performed by whoever feels like it. Similarly we don't explain the reasons for every single state law to every citizen, we just point to the book and basically say "Follow, or else..".

As today we have a secular law, we certainly aren't in need of a religious law to accompany it, nor do we need the wrath of god or the kingdom of heaven as incentives, the county jail and the general rewards of a life in freedom will do just fine. That doesn't mean that religion can't offer us anything, laws don't equal morals, they do not help to cope with the fear of death and they don't provide answers to unanswerable questions. In other words we are still in need of philosophy, but I would argue we are in no need for false history, rules based on bygone social structures and a long disproven ancient understanding of nature/science.

In in that I would conclude that even a deist philosophy can be of use to people who would not find comfort in an atheist or agnostic philosophy, but since this would not even require to take the form of a dogmatic religion, as it mostly didn't in ancient philosophy, todays religions are really the bastardized versions of something that would 'be good'.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13821
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Belinda »

Platonymous described how theistic religions (punishment and reward)are good for social control in the absence of adequate secular controls(punishment and reward).

However despite my own unbelief I do think that secular social controls of bare punishment and reward don't nourish the human need for belonging which is addressed by a set of beliefs and stories, or community rituals, or both. Those are what religions do supply.

True, there is Americanism with its rituals, its stories, and its ethics and that seems to work well without any recourse to any God who can intervene in history. Hpwever Americanism is a religion minus the supernatural belief. Unfortunately Americanism lacks the specified universalist ethic, which the more liberal supernatural religions are particularly good at.

North Korea has a Godlike figurehead which is a poor substitute for the theists' God and ineffective to promote prosperity without curtailing of liberties.

I'd promote religion but only if it it promoted universal inclusion, and the religionists frequently , intelligently, and democratically reviewed the smaller details of the moral code that it promoted.
Socialist
User avatar
Kernaghan
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: November 13th, 2013, 7:39 am

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Kernaghan »

The idea of religion is truth
False is a contraction
But to answe th question Religion does bring people together in the same religion.
Within the more enlightened minds this may be acceptable also.
But it is impossible to ignore the divisions within religions have created misery.
Can one be bold enough to say this is because it is false.

This is my first impute, please bear with me
Kernaghan
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Is religion good even if it's false?

Post by Grunth »

Kernaghan wrote:The idea of religion is truth
False is a contraction
But to answe th question Religion does bring people together in the same religion.
Within the more enlightened minds this may be acceptable also.
But it is impossible to ignore the divisions within religions have created misery.
Can one be bold enough to say this is because it is false.

This is my first impute, please bear with me
Kernaghan
I would say that the idea of religion being truth is a contraction.

Alcohol also brings people together for the worship of intoxication.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021