Are we all born an Atheist?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Sy Borg »

That will do.

NewMe, I appreciate that you wish to keep homosexuality front and centre in your mind at all times.

I wonder why one would obsess about gays? There are literally millions of other things to think about but, for whatever reason, homosexuality is clearly your life's great passion.

However, this is a thread about atheism and people don't attend atheism threads to read about your fixation with the bodies of gay people.
User avatar
Newme
Posts: 1401
Joined: December 13th, 2011, 1:21 am

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Newme »

You guys keep projecting and bringing it up. I just correct factually incorrect statements.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
User avatar
phenomenal_graffiti
Posts: 125
Joined: July 27th, 2009, 2:32 am
Favorite Philosopher: George Berkeley

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by phenomenal_graffiti »

We are born non-theist, then taught to be either theist or atheist. Agnosticism is usually a freely chosen conclusion, typically made in adulthood, by someone who is undecided and unwilling to settle one way or the other.
We are currently living within the mind of Jesus Christ as he is currently being crucified. One may think there is no God, or if one believes in God, one thinks one lives outside the mind of Christ in a post-crucifixion present.

In other news...
Darshan
Posts: 174
Joined: February 16th, 2013, 9:11 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Darshan »

Earthellism answers the question are we all born an Atheist. Newborns and babies are all gifts from God who created their soul and their human parents created everything else. One clue is that very young children appear not to be afraid of death. They fear separation from their parents and fear strangers. Young children have this inner strength that tells them that they descended from Heaven to experience earthell and human love. They appear to sense that at death they return to where they were preconception. This is all clearly seen in the film footage of the young children in the concentration camps of World War II. That footage shows the young children walking hand in hand with no fear or anger but a quiet resignation that this is their journey through Hell and as long as they have some human affection/love that they will be alright. Testimonial from Nazi guards describe a mother with 3 young children as they are led to the gas chamber and the children at peace since they are all holding part of their mothers hands or clothes. The mother confronts the Nazi guard who evilly says he does not hate the children, he just hates the children's Jewish blood. This footage made me physically ill and truly is Hell on earth.
Therefore children have an inner strength which suggests they understand that God created their soul and on their death they return to Heaven where they came from.
Darshan
Posts: 174
Joined: February 16th, 2013, 9:11 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Darshan »

Earthellism also teaches us that our soul is much older than our physical body. For example my daughter when held at birth looked at me with a old soul saying I am here to experience human love and affection and expect my parents to be responsible for my journey on earthell. I have very old people with relative young souls who fear death out of proportion to children suggesting their soul is less mature.
Children's soul can be hundreds if not thousands of years old and they they are not atheists but wired into the situation they are in and accept their journey good or bad.
The human devils (Nazi officials) that tortured and murdered children by poison gas or medical experimentation or throwing them into a burning pit in WWII, were not killing atheist children but God-loving children who knew they were returning to be with their creator in Heaven. They knew the Nazi officials that killed them would never go to Heaven and stay on earthell.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by LuckyR »

Darshan wrote: May 3rd, 2020, 10:21 pm Earthellism answers the question are we all born an Atheist. Newborns and babies are all gifts from God who created their soul and their human parents created everything else. One clue is that very young children appear not to be afraid of death. They fear separation from their parents and fear strangers. Young children have this inner strength that tells them that they descended from Heaven to experience earthell and human love. They appear to sense that at death they return to where they were preconception. This is all clearly seen in the film footage of the young children in the concentration camps of World War II. That footage shows the young children walking hand in hand with no fear or anger but a quiet resignation that this is their journey through Hell and as long as they have some human affection/love that they will be alright. Testimonial from Nazi guards describe a mother with 3 young children as they are led to the gas chamber and the children at peace since they are all holding part of their mothers hands or clothes. The mother confronts the Nazi guard who evilly says he does not hate the children, he just hates the children's Jewish blood. This footage made me physically ill and truly is Hell on earth.
Therefore children have an inner strength which suggests they understand that God created their soul and on their death they return to Heaven where they came from.
Your observations of the behavior of children can be explained many ways, none of which are inherently distinguishable from rationalization.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Steve3007 »

Darshan wrote:One clue is that very young children appear not to be afraid of death. They fear separation from their parents and fear strangers. Young children have this inner strength that tells them that they descended from Heaven to experience earthell and human love. They appear to sense that at death they return to where they were preconception.
Using this line of reasoning, I presume you would conclude that anything which does not fear death must have descended from Heaven to experience earthell and human love? Lack of fear of that particular event is the premise to your argument, yes?

(Can you see where I'm going with this?)
Darshan
Posts: 174
Joined: February 16th, 2013, 9:11 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Darshan »

Thank you for using earthell in your response.
The film footage of children in Nazi concentration camps is is what this is based on,
Philosophy requires one to think outside the box that rational thought keeps us in.
Rod Serling of the Twilight Zone would easily see the consistency and spiritual correctness of earthellism.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Sy Borg »

In the mind of an infant, there exists only itself and its mother. At that stage it does not see its mother as separate, but they are a composite being of sorts. So you could say that mother is god - the provider, controller, giver of unconditional love and (apparently to an infant) the best part of the composite infant/mother entity.
NukeBan
Posts: 144
Joined: April 20th, 2020, 6:24 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by NukeBan »

At that stage it does not see its mother as separate, but they are a composite being of sorts.
This is an interesting observation Greta, thanks for it.

According to the Gospel of NukeBan this composite being phenomena could be explained by the dawn of thought in the baby's brain. Before thought gets established the baby sees the world (correctly?) as a single unified whole. As thought develops the unified whole is broken up in to conceptual parts, and the "me" is born.

Before the big bang, all was one, or something close. Then the BANG!, division emerged from the one, and things were born.

If one's perspective is built upon observation of reality, and looking for known patterns which may be repeating in unexplained phenomena, then the emergence of reality and the emergence of the baby might be compared.

Before birth the baby was "unified with the one" so to speak. During a brief period after birth the baby can be observed transitioning from unity to the realm of division. At first baby/mom/reality are experienced as a single unified thing as Greta suggests, and then gradually thought begins it's job of drawing conceptual boundaries.

Best I can tell, at least some religious people are using the term God to refer to the state of unity which the baby inhabits at the dawn of life. And then there is the "fall of man" or "original sin" where we enter the realm of division, separation, and the suffering (ejection from the Garden of Eden) which flows from that state. This suffering gives rise to the desire to "get back to God", a quest which becomes formalized in organized religions.

If the experience of division and separation is a thought generated illusion, religion might be seen as a collection of optional procedures which have as their goal transcending the illusion of separation, and the suffering which flows from it.

If true, it would be rational for anyone to decline religion if religion is not helping them transcend the illusion of separation. It would however be irrational for them to ignore the separation illusion problem which religions are seeking to solve. The rational act would be, if one tool isn't working put it down and select another. But don't walk away from the job.

If the experience of division and separation is a thought generated illusion, that's not a religious problem, that's a human problem.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Sy Borg »

NukeBan wrote: May 9th, 2020, 11:43 am
At that stage it does not see its mother as separate, but they are a composite being of sorts.
This is an interesting observation Greta, thanks for it.

According to the Gospel of NukeBan this composite being phenomena could be explained by the dawn of thought in the baby's brain. Before thought gets established the baby sees the world (correctly?) as a single unified whole. As thought develops the unified whole is broken up in to conceptual parts, and the "me" is born.

Before the big bang, all was one, or something close. Then the BANG!, division emerged from the one, and things were born.

If one's perspective is built upon observation of reality, and looking for known patterns which may be repeating in unexplained phenomena, then the emergence of reality and the emergence of the baby might be compared.

Before birth the baby was "unified with the one" so to speak. During a brief period after birth the baby can be observed transitioning from unity to the realm of division. At first baby/mom/reality are experienced as a single unified thing as Greta suggests, and then gradually thought begins it's job of drawing conceptual boundaries.
Trouble is, infants do feel separate to anyone who does not smell like the mother, probably because they did not spend months squashed up inside them. At first infants tend to be scared of, rather than connected to, everyone. Except mother - the goddess, who is huge, all-powerful, their protector and giver of all bounty and comfort.
NukeBan
Posts: 144
Joined: April 20th, 2020, 6:24 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by NukeBan »

Good point Greta! I'll admit to not being an expert on babies.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Sy Borg »

Neither am I. I'm not an expert in anything, more an intellectual bowerbird looking for "shiny things" to add to my hoard. My ultimate aim: to be a little less confused by the nature of reality than I was yesterday.

The OP, of course, is asking whether people naturally gravitate towards belief in supreme entities or if it's the result of cultural conditioning based on our ancestors' anthropormphism of natural phenomena. Personally, I find it hard to not think of stars and planets as gods, worthy of the greatest possible awe and respect, when you consider their scale, scope and range of influence.
NukeBan
Posts: 144
Joined: April 20th, 2020, 6:24 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by NukeBan »

Greta wrote: May 9th, 2020, 8:34 pmThe OP, of course, is asking whether people naturally gravitate towards belief in supreme entities or if it's the result of cultural conditioning based on our ancestors' anthropormphism of natural phenomena
It seems helpful to recall that Abrahamic religions (which is what is usually being discussed on philosophy forums) arose thousands of years ago in an era dominated by uneducated peasants who lived short harsh lives, life expectancies half of ours perhaps. So whatever insightful sages who may have existed were in a position perhaps similar to trying to explain sex to a five year old. The anthropomorphism of natural phenomena may have arose in that context, in the attempt to craft stories which that audience could relate to.

Today in a very different environment the stories no longer work as well, which is to be expected. And so one can reasonably reject stories one can't relate to.

As the five year old grows up the story about the stork bringing baby brother will no longer work, but baby brother still came from somewhere. So while the stork story is now dead, what that story was attempting to point to may not be.
Personally, I find it hard to not think of stars and planets as gods, worthy of the greatest possible awe and respect, when you consider their scale, scope and range of influence.
To me, this seems the most rational move. Whether one thinks the stars are gods or giant balls of nuclear fire or something else, the bottom line practical rational question is the same, what is our relationship with it? The most rational philosopher might be the person who has found their way to experiencing tears of joy while observing the beauty of a handful of dirt. When the smallest things can bring us the greatest joy, then joy will be everywhere, and reason will have triumphed.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Are we all born an Atheist?

Post by Sy Borg »

NukeBan wrote: May 10th, 2020, 10:37 am
Greta wrote: May 9th, 2020, 8:34 pmThe OP, of course, is asking whether people naturally gravitate towards belief in supreme entities or if it's the result of cultural conditioning based on our ancestors' anthropormphism of natural phenomena
It seems helpful to recall that Abrahamic religions (which is what is usually being discussed on philosophy forums) arose thousands of years ago in an era dominated by uneducated peasants who lived short harsh lives, life expectancies half of ours perhaps. So whatever insightful sages who may have existed were in a position perhaps similar to trying to explain sex to a five year old. The anthropomorphism of natural phenomena may have arose in that context, in the attempt to craft stories which that audience could relate to.

Today in a very different environment the stories no longer work as well, which is to be expected. And so one can reasonably reject stories one can't relate to.

As the five year old grows up the story about the stork bringing baby brother will no longer work, but baby brother still came from somewhere. So while the stork story is now dead, what that story was attempting to point to may not be.
Personally, I find it hard to not think of stars and planets as gods, worthy of the greatest possible awe and respect, when you consider their scale, scope and range of influence.
To me, this seems the most rational move. Whether one thinks the stars are gods or giant balls of nuclear fire or something else, the bottom line practical rational question is the same, what is our relationship with it? The most rational philosopher might be the person who has found their way to experiencing tears of joy while observing the beauty of a handful of dirt. When the smallest things can bring us the greatest joy, then joy will be everywhere, and reason will have triumphed.
Clearly you lean towards the cultural conditioning possibility. I do think there is an innate tendency towards awe and worship, probably starting with one's parents. Once we approach their powers and see their fallibility, the same impulse can be seen to be directed towards VIPs, lovers and mythical characters.

Even if there is no one worthy of such awe, we agree that there are some things that warrant those feelings. Given the layered way reality works, each layer is comprised of "subjects" and is, in itself, a "subject" of a greater entity. For us, that might be humanity as a whole, life as a whole, the Earth, the Sun or even the entire universe. It is a sign of the unenlightened times in which gods were first worshipped that no one bothers with the poor old Milky Way or, indeed, the supermassive black hole Sagittarius A* that fulfils more qualities of God than any other known entity.

1. Likely creator and maintainer of our galaxy
2. Ethereal, not made from the same substance as us
3. Not subject to the same physics as us
4. Cannot be seen or touched
5. Impossibly huge (almost 13 million kms) and powerful, whose influence indirectly runs through the entire galaxy
6. Effectively eternal, lasting quadrillions of years to the endgame of the universe while being subjectively timeless in its centre.

Interestingly, the ancients skipped immediately from humanity to the entire universe, sometimes including the Earth and Sun along the way. So, while intermediate entities are dismissed (also galactic clusters and superclusters, with Laniakea being another godlike entity), there was always a logical sense that there must be "everything" aka the universe.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021