If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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LuckyR
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

Greatest I am wrote: January 17th, 2022, 1:33 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 17th, 2022, 1:19 pm
Greatest I am wrote: January 17th, 2022, 11:53 am Evil is a part of creation and must be venerated just as much as good.

In a dualistic reality, how can there not be evil?

Evil is a really small part of reality as compared to the huge good.

Look about and you will agree.

This is why God is said to created both good and evil for his pleasure.

Regards
DL
Even though the OP topic is not that interesting logically, it is interesting IMO the different roles that gods are asked to fill by various individuals. Some are creators but are otherwise hands off, others try to be omni-everything, some are the voice in the back of your mind.
If ones God is anything but your last, your mind, then that God is not worthy of anyone.

That is why a Gnostic Christians names his God, I am, and does mean him or herself.

To give our control of our thinking and actions to another, is idol worship, and acceptance that we are not fit to guide ourselves.

Only poor thinkers should ever want to relinquish their control of themselves to another.

Regards
DL
I don't disagree with you, but we've got to acknowledge the popularity of organized religions of the type you describe.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

Be it a God or nature, evil and sin are necessary to the plan of evolution.

Without what most call evil, we would have likely gone extinct.

That truth is shown by Christians singing of the good and necessity of Adam's sin.

Christians have just stupidly forgot how to do apologetics on their own bible and dogma.

Their hierarchy worked hard to keep Christians stupid, religiously speaking, and it is now killing itself.

Regards
DL
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Gertie »

PC
OK. I believe that a lot of the "suffering" you refer to stems from evolution. But evolution is a mindless thing, without intention or 'goodness'. Now it may be that God, or Richard Dawkins, put evolution in place, with intention and purpose, I don't know.

But you refer to an omni-everything creator-God, who is also said to be, or assumed to be, "good".
Yes, this common contemporary concept of what god means is the one The Problem of Evil usually addresses. A 'minded' perfectly good, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator god. We might not need to raise the issue of evil and suffering this way with other types of gods, if different claims are made for their nature.

Such a God could control every aspect of the universe(s), but why would She? Think about it. If God is the direct cause of every event that ever takes place in the universe(s), then the universe would simply be God, or a direct reflection thereof.
A perfect omnipotent god can create imperfect things.
Creating it would be a waste of time, as God already exists, and needs no reflection. So I imagine that God, having created everything, would retire to a more passive role, mostly watching, and occasionally guiding, the progress of life in Her universe(s).
Imagining what such a god would think/feel/do is nigh on impossible isn't it? Unless you've had some divine revelation. ''Mysterious Ways'' type theodicy acknowledges that much.

The goodness you refer to would surely be 'good for all', and not good only for (say) one species of intelligent ape on one tiny planet. To achieve goodness for all, across the universe, would necessarily involve compromises - lots of them. And some of those compromises would be not-good for some living things at the same time as being 'good' for others. Even an omni-everything God cannot cause everything to be 'good' for every living thing. The universe is too big and complex for that, and anyway, the universe, and the life it nurtures, doesn't work like that.

In theory such a god could do anything. What we know and can talk about is the universe as it is, and if it looks like something an omni good god would come up with. I've said why I don't think it is, you might believe this is the best, or goodest of all possible worlds, but I simply disagree.

And finally, what is this "suffering" that you describe? Is it an emotional thing? Is it the natural resistance of every living thing to oppose any approach toward death? Or do you refer to pain, with the assumption that other living things experience it more or less as humans do?


As far as we know suffering can only be experienced by sentient creatures which have a qualiative aspect to their experience. What is suffering to one human might not be to another, or a member of a different species. But yes, pain and death (the extinguishing of sentience) are obviously biggies.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: January 17th, 2022, 1:19 pm ...it is interesting IMO the different roles that gods are asked to fill by various individuals. Some are creators but are otherwise hands off, others try to be omni-everything, some are the voice in the back of your mind.
Interesting indeed. We recognise a being whose power, abilities and intentions are far beyond our understanding, and then we assign qualities - in this case, 'goodness' - to Her. Then, when the 'Problem of Evil' emerges, we try to make out it's God's fault. Colossal, childish, conceit. In other words, business as usual for humanity. 😉 [You've got to laugh, or you'd cry.]

.................................................................................................................

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 17th, 2022, 8:22 am You refer to an omni-everything creator-God, who is also said to be, or assumed to be, "good".
Gertie wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:31 pm Yes, this common contemporary concept of what god means is the one The Problem of Evil usually addresses. A 'minded' perfectly good, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator god.
It's certainly a common understanding of God, as you say.


Pattern-chaser wrote: January 17th, 2022, 8:22 am I imagine that God, having created everything, would retire to a more passive role, mostly watching, and occasionally guiding, the progress of life in Her universe(s).
Gertie wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:31 pm Imagining what such a god would think/feel/do is nigh on impossible isn't it?
Oh yes! 😄 Second-guessing God is somewhat unwise, and unlikely to yield accurate results. 😄


Pattern-chaser wrote: January 17th, 2022, 8:22 am The goodness you refer to would surely be 'good for all', and not good only for (say) one species of intelligent ape on one tiny planet. To achieve goodness for all, across the universe, would necessarily involve compromises - lots of them. And some of those compromises would be not-good for some living things at the same time as being 'good' for others. Even an omni-everything God cannot cause everything to be 'good' for every living thing. The universe is too big and complex for that, and anyway, the universe, and the life it nurtures, doesn't work like that.
Gertie wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:31 pm What we know and can talk about is the universe as it is, and if it looks like something an omni good god would come up with. I've said why I don't think it is, you might believe this is the best, or goodest of all possible worlds, but I simply disagree.
No, I don't believe that any more than you do. 👍
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

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Greatest I am wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:19 pm Be it a God or nature, evil and sin are necessary to the plan of evolution.
No.
Sin is just a human conceit of very recent manufacture and is quickly going out of fashion. There has ben billions of years of evolution with no need for sin of any kind.
Evil is similarly just a human conceit and not widely recognised by nature.

Without what most call evil, we would have likely gone extinct.
How. Please show your working.

That truth is shown by Christians singing of the good and necessity of Adam's sin.

Christians have just stupidly forgot how to do apologetics on their own bible and dogma.

Their hierarchy worked hard to keep Christians stupid, religiously speaking, and it is now killing itself.

Regards
DL
Evolution has no interest in god, Adam, or Christians. It happens with or without them.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by kk23wong »

I wonder why people couldn't accept the world have something that we don't know. Then simply say "I don't know". Why everything has an answer in our minds? If yes, what are we searching in the outside world (external - you could reach it but it doesn't belong to be part of you)? Admit it, and say I duno.

The God is supernatural and far beyond our common understandings. Let there be a God, but something evil still carry on. There are no contradictions because the God who was "all-good" doesn't exist. She is simply a manipulator of our world.

Soul is another story. The existence of the God does not necessarily prove that there are souls. An afterlife was only a fagile guarrantee of the God in religions, not the God herself. She could talk to you and offer you eternal life, but obviously she did not. No more imaginations of souls and afterlife are good for your health, Be healthy and long-living, forget about an afterlife. Don't be like the Egyptians and the Cultura Maya. Working for an aftelife all amongst their lifetime!
Looking for the Truth Teller in this website https://linktr.ee/kk23wong
A Teller is the Teller in the Holy Bible if you are seeking.

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sculptor1 »

kk23wong wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:57 am I wonder why people couldn't accept the world have something that we don't know. Then simply say "I don't know". Why everything has an answer in our minds? If yes, what are we searching in the outside world (external - you could reach it but it doesn't belong to be part of you)? Admit it, and say I duno.

The God is supernatural and far beyond our common understandings.
You immediately contradict yourself by saying there is such a thing as god, without once thinking to have the humility to question what you have been told.
Let there be a God, but something evil still carry on. There are no contradictions because the God who was "all-good" doesn't exist. She is simply a manipulator of our world.
You seem pretty sure of yourself. I thought you said we should say "dunno"?

Soul is another story. The existence of the God does not necessarily prove that there are souls. An afterlife was only a fagile guarrantee of the God in religions, not the God herself. She could talk to you and offer you eternal life, but obviously she did not. No more imaginations of souls and afterlife are good for your health, Be healthy and long-living, forget about an afterlife. Don't be like the Egyptians and the Cultura Maya. Working for an aftelife all amongst their lifetime!
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

Sculptor1 wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:36 am
Greatest I am wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:19 pm Be it a God or nature, evil and sin are necessary to the plan of evolution.
No.
Sin is just a human conceit of very recent manufacture and is quickly going out of fashion. There has ben billions of years of evolution with no need for sin of any kind.
Evil is similarly just a human conceit and not widely recognised by nature.

Without what most call evil, we would have likely gone extinct.
How. Please show your working.

When you compete, do you like to lose?

Do you see your lose as good or evil?

If evil, then that equates to what religions call sin.

Accept that language or we have nothing further to discuss.

Evil is what one does not like and so is sin.

Regards
DL

That truth is shown by Christians singing of the good and necessity of Adam's sin.

Christians have just stupidly forgot how to do apologetics on their own bible and dogma.

Their hierarchy worked hard to keep Christians stupid, religiously speaking, and it is now killing itself.

Regards
DL
Evolution has no interest in god, Adam, or Christians. It happens with or without them.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:16 am
LuckyR wrote: January 17th, 2022, 1:19 pm ...it is interesting IMO the different roles that gods are asked to fill by various individuals. Some are creators but are otherwise hands off, others try to be omni-everything, some are the voice in the back of your mind.
Interesting indeed. We recognise a being whose power, abilities and intentions are far beyond our understanding, and then we assign qualities - in this case, 'goodness' - to Her. Then, when the 'Problem of Evil' emerges, we try to make out it's God's fault. Colossal, childish, conceit. In other words, business as usual for humanity. 😉 [You've got to laugh, or you'd cry.]
Correct. Evil has to exist statistically, just as cold has to. Both are relative terms. If the bottom 10% of temperatures were eliminated, we would just change the value of absolute zero and use the term "cold" to refer to a 10% adjusted range of temperatures. Just as if all homicides were eliminated, we would use evil for rapes and maiming.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

kk23wong wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:57 am I wonder why people couldn't accept the world have something that we don't know. Then simply say "I don't know". Why everything has an answer in our minds? If yes, what are we searching in the outside world (external - you could reach it but it doesn't belong to be part of you)? Admit it, and say I duno.

The God is supernatural and far beyond our common understandings. Let there be a God, but something evil still carry on. There are no contradictions because the God who was "all-good" doesn't exist. She is simply a manipulator of our world.

Soul is another story. The existence of the God does not necessarily prove that there are souls. An afterlife was only a fagile guarrantee of the God in religions, not the God herself. She could talk to you and offer you eternal life, but obviously she did not. No more imaginations of souls and afterlife are good for your health, Be healthy and long-living, forget about an afterlife. Don't be like the Egyptians and the Cultura Maya. Working for an aftelife all amongst their lifetime!
There are no contradictions because the God who was "all-good" doesn't exist. She is simply a manipulator of our world.
God is said to be all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. If you omit all good from the definition of God (as you suggest) then God may exist.
On the other hand, if you omit the all- powerful from the definition of God, then God may exist.
I hope the all-knowing and all-good God is in Hong Kong now and always.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Greatest I am wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:19 pm Be it a God or nature, evil and sin are necessary to the plan of evolution.

Without what most call evil, we would have likely gone extinct.

That truth is shown by Christians singing of the good and necessity of Adam's sin.

Christians have just stupidly forgot how to do apologetics on their own bible and dogma.

Their hierarchy worked hard to keep Christians stupid, religiously speaking, and it is now killing itself.
If these are your personal beliefs, fair enough. I will not question them on that basis. But:

On first sight, this is the sort of thing that gives us believers a bad name, as Sculptor1 has commented already. I was raised by strict and traditional Roman Catholics - Latin mass; people who almost regretted the demise of the Inquisition - and I encountered none of the beliefs you describe. Adam's Sin - known as the "Original Sin" - was a sin, and we humans were punished for it by God, who ejected us from Paradise. Evil and sin were to be avoided at all costs. I know of no "dogma" that confirms your text, above.

So perhaps you might clarify your thoughts, and show how I (and others) have misunderstood? Thanks.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by kk23wong »

The God exists, but in term of an invisible manipulator. This is one of my core beliefs - personal beliefs.

However, the existence of the God does not necessarily equals to the existence of souls. The God does role-playing as angels, demons, holy spirits and even our "inner-self" because she is the only one capable of doing this. And by doing this, the God manipulates our world and creates different religions. That is part of the truth I know. For the rests of the story, I am sorry but I have to say "I duno".
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by EricPH »

Sculptor1 wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:36 am Evolution has no interest in god, Adam, or Christians. It happens with or without them.
Evolution could only happen if it was guided by God.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by EricPH »

kk23wong wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:35 pm the God manipulates our world and creates different religions.
I agree with you; it might be because mankind is too stupid to do anything one way. Christians know there is only one Jesus Christ, but it would make far more sense if there were thousands of Jesus Christs; one for every Christian denomination. Did God want thousands of Christian denominations? Or was it man?

In the church colander; this is the week for 'Christian Unity'. Sadly we still have a long way to go.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR »

EricPH wrote: January 19th, 2022, 8:14 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:36 am Evolution has no interest in god, Adam, or Christians. It happens with or without them.
Evolution could only happen if it was guided by God.
Interesting opinion, care to share why you believe it?
"As usual... it depends."
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