If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Karpel Tunnel
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 11th, 2019, 2:34 pm But surely you have read enough of my posts to know that I would have no more asserted the existence of Satan, than I would have asserted the existence of God.
I may have read enough, but scattered over too much time. Perhaps it is different for the other guy, the one you were responding to. Perhaps he 'should' have known. I don't know. Not sure how to measure that and decide.
And so the well worn trope that God allows a little evil to make good things appear better, is clearly being parodied by a person who is an atheist.
Of course, if I had read the original post and known you were an atheist, then I assume I would have gotten it, or been puzzled at least.

I mean, it's all fine. You don't have to prevent misunderstandings. But honestly I didn't know you were an atheist. Perhaps I should or 'should' given some interaction, we've had. But I didn't remember until you said it. I did see that post of yours, found it odd, not because I remembered you were an atheist, but found little that I wanted to dig into. He seems to have not remembered.

And heck, (again) people contradict themselves too.

I jumped in here mainly because I have thought quite a bit about what online posting allows, because we cannot see body language, hear changes in voice tone, etc. It allows people to present themselves as if they are sure, confident, unaffected, experts, etc. In perhaps many of these posers could not manage it. We'd see their confusion. They wouldn't have the time to maintain face with a good response.

When I saw his response to you I realized this is a related phenomenon, an effect of not having those extra cues.

This is not me saying you were posing. it's a different phenomenon, but connected to the same limitations of the medium. I'll leave this digression here so as not to hijack.
GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: September 11th, 2019, 4:30 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 11th, 2019, 2:34 pm But surely you have read enough of my posts to know that I would have no more asserted the existence of Satan, than I would have asserted the existence of God.
I may have read enough, but scattered over too much time. Perhaps it is different for the other guy, the one you were responding to. Perhaps he 'should' have known. I don't know. Not sure how to measure that and decide.
And so the well worn trope that God allows a little evil to make good things appear better, is clearly being parodied by a person who is an atheist.
Of course, if I had read the original post and known you were an atheist, then I assume I would have gotten it, or been puzzled at least.

I mean, it's all fine. You don't have to prevent misunderstandings. But honestly I didn't know you were an atheist. Perhaps I should or 'should' given some interaction, we've had. But I didn't remember until you said it. I did see that post of yours, found it odd, not because I remembered you were an atheist, but found little that I wanted to dig into. He seems to have not remembered.

And heck, (again) people contradict themselves too.

I jumped in here mainly because I have thought quite a bit about what online posting allows, because we cannot see body language, hear changes in voice tone, etc. It allows people to present themselves as if they are sure, confident, unaffected, experts, etc. In perhaps many of these posers could not manage it. We'd see their confusion. They wouldn't have the time to maintain face with a good response.

When I saw his response to you I realized this is a related phenomenon, an effect of not having those extra cues.

This is not me saying you were posing. it's a different phenomenon, but connected to the same limitations of the medium. I'll leave this digression here so as not to hijack.
I write text and I post it here and on my website. I know that after it is posted that I completely disappear. Nowhere do I appear in those words. I am always and forever writing the Boy. He haunts the text I post. He is ghostly. He is a ghost. He is the author of that text. That is my religion. He is a jealous god. So I write of nothing else. When you interpret that text, you are dealing with Him. Not me. Good Luck.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 11th, 2019, 11:28 pm I write text and I post it here and on my website. I know that after it is posted that I completely disappear. Nowhere do I appear in those words. I am always and forever writing the Boy. He haunts the text I post. He is ghostly. He is a ghost. He is the author of that text. That is my religion. He is a jealous god. So I write of nothing else. When you interpret that text, you are dealing with Him. Not me. Good Luck.
Puer Aeternus? Son rather than Father?
GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: September 12th, 2019, 12:58 am
GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 11th, 2019, 11:28 pm I write text and I post it here and on my website. I know that after it is posted that I completely disappear. Nowhere do I appear in those words. I am always and forever writing the Boy. He haunts the text I post. He is ghostly. He is a ghost. He is the author of that text. That is my religion. He is a jealous god. So I write of nothing else. When you interpret that text, you are dealing with Him. Not me. Good Luck.
Puer Aeternus? Son rather than Father?
Those are great questions. I have done a lot of thinking about that. And theologizing. Yes, the Son. The Boy of God. The Holy Ghost of charismatic religion. But it is not limited to Christianity. There is something similar in every religion I have looked at. Ask me more questions so my mind has something to work with. Even challenge me.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 12th, 2019, 1:17 am
Karpel Tunnel wrote: September 12th, 2019, 12:58 am
Puer Aeternus? Son rather than Father?
Those are great questions. I have done a lot of thinking about that. And theologizing. Yes, the Son. The Boy of God. The Holy Ghost of charismatic religion. But it is not limited to Christianity. There is something similar in every religion I have looked at. Ask me more questions so my mind has something to work with. Even challenge me.
Can you see the sons and distinguish them from the fathers if you walk in a room and there are a bunch of people there? I often can. Of course the daddies can be quite immature, so it's not about that. The mothers always complain about their infantile father partners. I mentioned sons versus fathers not thinking of Christianity, though,yeah Jesus was a son. The good son - think Nick Cave's song of that name. What are son's challenges as opposed to father's?
GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: September 12th, 2019, 1:24 am
GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 12th, 2019, 1:17 am

Those are great questions. I have done a lot of thinking about that. And theologizing. Yes, the Son. The Boy of God. The Holy Ghost of charismatic religion. But it is not limited to Christianity. There is something similar in every religion I have looked at. Ask me more questions so my mind has something to work with. Even challenge me.
Can you see the sons and distinguish them from the fathers if you walk in a room and there are a bunch of people there? I often can. Of course the daddies can be quite immature, so it's not about that. The mothers always complain about their infantile father partners. I mentioned sons versus fathers not thinking of Christianity, though,yeah Jesus was a son. The good son - think Nick Cave's song of that name. What are son's challenges as opposed to father's?
You seem to be talking about humankind. Honestly, I know nothing about that.
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

What is the difference between humans and gods? Are all gods good ? If so how ? Is religion better when when gods pertain only to individuals?

The concepts of good and bad loose their meanings when gods are subjective because good and bad are meaningless unless they relate to the other i.e. the not-self.
Jesus was a son
wrote Karpel Tunnel. Jesus was son of Joseph. Jesus Christ was son of God. Christians mean incarnation of God when they say 'son of God'. Religious Jews mean a good Jew when they say 'son of God'.

I'd mean a good man if I were to say 'son of God'. I can think of many sons of God most of them obscure people whose sex and religious devotions if any are irrelevant to their stature.
GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Belindi wrote: September 12th, 2019, 3:32 am What is the difference between humans and gods? Are all gods good ? If so how ? Is religion better when when gods pertain only to individuals?

The concepts of good and bad loose their meanings when gods are subjective because good and bad are meaningless unless they relate to the other i.e. the not-self.
Jesus was a son
wrote Karpel Tunnel. Jesus was son of Joseph. Jesus Christ was son of God. Christians mean incarnation of God when they say 'son of God'. Religious Jews mean a good Jew when they say 'son of God'.

I'd mean a good man if I were to say 'son of God'. I can think of many sons of God most of them obscure people whose sex and religious devotions if any are irrelevant to their stature.
In Jesus' time the epithet "son of God" was a common way to refer to a magician. https://www.docdroid.net/KxikeM9/morton ... gician.pdf I think Jesus was probably one of them, who knows, maybe better than the rest. I still pray to Jesus.
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Sculptor1
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Belindi wrote: September 12th, 2019, 3:32 am I'd mean a good man if I were to say 'son of God'. I can think of many sons of God most of them obscure people whose sex and religious devotions if any are irrelevant to their stature.
Sadly when the Greeks got hold of the story, they took the phrase a little too literally.
And, since, in Greek culture any Tom, Dick, and Harry can be literally the Son of a God, the Jesus myth was born on the tablets of Greek scribes.
Jklint
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Jklint »

Because god likes a good play. There can be no drama without evil and goodness alone seems pointless. There can be no evolutionary thoughts without some evil memes intermixed. It's the pepper on the steak.
GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Belindi wrote: September 12th, 2019, 3:32 am What is the difference between humans and gods? Are all gods good ? If so how ? Is religion better when when gods pertain only to individuals?

The concepts of good and bad loose their meanings when gods are subjective because good and bad are meaningless unless they relate to the other i.e. the not-self.
Jesus was a son
wrote Karpel Tunnel. Jesus was son of Joseph. Jesus Christ was son of God. Christians mean incarnation of God when they say 'son of God'. Religious Jews mean a good Jew when they say 'son of God'.

I'd mean a good man if I were to say 'son of God'. I can think of many sons of God most of them obscure people whose sex and religious devotions if any are irrelevant to their stature.
The difference between humans and gods is that humans are always striving, often in contradictory ways, for the Good, while the gods have no such concern. Any god who is not immoral is no god. Humans are tied to the good with a golden chain. That chain must be broken. Today moralism has taken over philosophy and it is killing philosophy.
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

GaryLouisSmith wrote:
The difference between humans and gods is that humans are always striving, often in contradictory ways, for the Good, while the gods have no such concern. Any god who is not immoral is no god. Humans are tied to the good with a golden chain. That chain must be broken. Today moralism has taken over philosophy and it is killing philosophy.
The good means one of two different things depending 1. Platonic Form of The Good, or 2. a specific society's moral culture.

It's unlikely 1. manifests in the same behaviour among all human cultures.It's possible all humans at the later developments of Maslow's hierarchy aim for good according to their own lights and of course that aim is subjectively evaluated.

Regarding 2. would Gary be able to maintain his very life if it were not for the local moral culture of wherever he lives? The local moral culture is nothing but the local consensus of what local people ought to do, whatever that is. Clearly since people do buy, sell, offer services, and comply with the law to some extent in Kathmandu there is a moral culture there. No golden chain just practicality of trustful exchange.

Ideologies take hold of simple local morality when powerful interests get involved and then the plain morality morphs into ideology.
The difference between humans and gods is that humans are always striving, often in contradictory ways, for the Good, while the gods have no such concern. Any god who is not immoral is no god.
The plain, local, morality that ensures the people you and I live among live reasonably peaceably and cooperatively with others matches your description of the disinterested god the force of nature, not 'immoral' but amoral.

Humans are not always striving for The Good . The Good is the ineffable head man of all ideologies and therefore, as head of ideology ,not to be trusted.
GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Belindi wrote: September 13th, 2019, 6:23 am GaryLouisSmith wrote:
The difference between humans and gods is that humans are always striving, often in contradictory ways, for the Good, while the gods have no such concern. Any god who is not immoral is no god. Humans are tied to the good with a golden chain. That chain must be broken. Today moralism has taken over philosophy and it is killing philosophy.
The good means one of two different things depending 1. Platonic Form of The Good, or 2. a specific society's moral culture.

It's unlikely 1. manifests in the same behaviour among all human cultures.It's possible all humans at the later developments of Maslow's hierarchy aim for good according to their own lights and of course that aim is subjectively evaluated.

Regarding 2. would Gary be able to maintain his very life if it were not for the local moral culture of wherever he lives? The local moral culture is nothing but the local consensus of what local people ought to do, whatever that is. Clearly since people do buy, sell, offer services, and comply with the law to some extent in Kathmandu there is a moral culture there. No golden chain just practicality of trustful exchange.

Ideologies take hold of simple local morality when powerful interests get involved and then the plain morality morphs into ideology.
The difference between humans and gods is that humans are always striving, often in contradictory ways, for the Good, while the gods have no such concern. Any god who is not immoral is no god.
The plain, local, morality that ensures the people you and I live among live reasonably peaceably and cooperatively with others matches your description of the disinterested god the force of nature, not 'immoral' but amoral.

Humans are not always striving for The Good . The Good is the ineffable head man of all ideologies and therefore, as head of ideology ,not to be trusted.
Yes, you have here spoken of morality among humans. Do you have anything to say about morality among the gods?
GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 13th, 2019, 6:34 am
Belindi wrote: September 13th, 2019, 6:23 am GaryLouisSmith wrote:



The good means one of two different things depending 1. Platonic Form of The Good, or 2. a specific society's moral culture.

It's unlikely 1. manifests in the same behaviour among all human cultures.It's possible all humans at the later developments of Maslow's hierarchy aim for good according to their own lights and of course that aim is subjectively evaluated.

Regarding 2. would Gary be able to maintain his very life if it were not for the local moral culture of wherever he lives? The local moral culture is nothing but the local consensus of what local people ought to do, whatever that is. Clearly since people do buy, sell, offer services, and comply with the law to some extent in Kathmandu there is a moral culture there. No golden chain just practicality of trustful exchange.

Ideologies take hold of simple local morality when powerful interests get involved and then the plain morality morphs into ideology.



The plain, local, morality that ensures the people you and I live among live reasonably peaceably and cooperatively with others matches your description of the disinterested god the force of nature, not 'immoral' but amoral.

Humans are not always striving for The Good . The Good is the ineffable head man of all ideologies and therefore, as head of ideology ,not to be trusted.
Yes, you have here spoken of morality among humans. Do you have anything to say about morality among the gods?
It is often the case that after I post a reply to you, I see that you have added to what you have to say and that somewhat throws off my reply.
Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

It is an unfair practice . Please continue to rise above it.

I don't know anything about morality among the gods in legend and tradition. If there are any such legends and traditions I bet they are due to humans trying in our puny way to make sense of chaos.
At this juncture we arrive at faith not reason.
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