If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Felix
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix »

Pattern-chaser said: I am stunned that this old saw still merits discussion on forums like this one.
Not as shocking as someone actually commenting on the original topic of the thread. :wink: Welcome to the forum.

I presume the God being referenced is the Christian Omniscient/Omnipotent/Omnibenevolent diety. As you correctly point out, the latter attribute and/or one of the others is incompatible with material existence.

Understandably, most people have a problem worshipping a god who is fickle when it comes to good and evil. If He is truly omnibenevolent, then we must presume that he is not omnipotent or omniscient. If I had to pick one deficit, I'd go with non-omnipotent, because who wants an uniformed god?

His other potential alibi would be that he is concerned not with our physical health but with our metaphysical health, i.e., the welfare and progress of our immaterial soul, but that leaves us with the riddle of the nature and purpose of this spiritual "progress."
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Felix wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 8:15 pm
Pattern-chaser said: I am stunned that this old saw still merits discussion on forums like this one.
Not as shocking as someone actually commenting on the original topic of the thread. :wink: Welcome to the forum.

I presume the God being referenced is the Christian Omniscient/Omnipotent/Omnibenevolent diety. As you correctly point out, the latter attribute and/or one of the others is incompatible with material existence.

Understandably, most people have a problem worshipping a god who is fickle when it comes to good and evil. If He is truly omnibenevolent, then we must presume that he is not omnipotent or omniscient. If I had to pick one deficit, I'd go with non-omnipotent, because who wants an uniformed god?

His other potential alibi would be that he is concerned not with our physical health but with our metaphysical health, i.e., the welfare and progress of our immaterial soul, but that leaves us with the riddle of the nature and purpose of this spiritual "progress."
Oh Felix, you're such a rationalist, judging God with your rationalist ideas. Give it up. It's not going to work. Rationalism died a long time ago.
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Felix
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix »

Gary, I think a rational question deserves a rational reply, and an irrational one deserves an irrational reply or no rely at all, whereas you seem to think that both types of questions deserve an irrational reply.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Felix wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 9:14 pm Gary, I think a rational question deserves a rational reply, and an irrational one deserves an irrational reply or no rely at all, whereas you seem to think that both types of questions deserve an irrational reply.
If that were the case, then we would be stuck on the treadmill of rationalism forever. You assumed that the Christian God is such and such. I think you assumed wrong. In the Old Testament, the second commandment says, "The Lord, thy God, is a jealous God." Nowhere does it talk about omni-anything. Have you ever tried to calmly talk reason to someone consumed by jealousy? It ain't pretty and from a distance it is laughable. You are not speaking about the Biblical God, but about the God of rationalists.
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Sy Borg
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

Yes, but the Biblical God, especially of the Old Testament, is completely ridiculous, unrealistic and clearly more rooted in imagination than reality.

The unhinged notions of the Abrahamics only gained traction by infiltrating the Roman Empire, taking advantage of the latter's decay. The idea of deities being jealous of each other is closer to my science fiction stories than anything based in reality.

A male God.
A jealous God.
A God that tells people to kill their children and then goes, "Yeah, nah" at the last moment.
A God that is scared of menstruating women.
A God that thinks gay people are abominations.
A God with serious concerns about shellfish.
A God that punishes rubbernecking by turning people into table condiments.
A God that rescues people after they spend months camping out within the belly of a whale.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Greta wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 11:08 pm Yes, but the Biblical God, especially of the Old Testament, is completely ridiculous, unrealistic and clearly more rooted in imagination than reality.

The unhinged notions of the Abrahamics only gained traction by infiltrating the Roman Empire, taking advantage of the latter's decay. The idea of deities being jealous of each other is closer to my science fiction stories than anything based in reality.

A male God.
A jealous God.
A God that tells people to kill their children and then goes, "Yeah, nah" at the last moment.
A God that is scared of menstruating women.
A God that thinks gay people are abominations.
A God with serious concerns about shellfish.
A God that punishes rubbernecking by turning people into table condiments.
A God that rescues people after they spend months camping out within the belly of a whale.
At least that God you describe has a little life in him and isn't like the boring, bland God of today's pale moralists.
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Sy Borg
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 11:12 pm
Greta wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 11:08 pm Yes, but the Biblical God, especially of the Old Testament, is completely ridiculous, unrealistic and clearly more rooted in imagination than reality.

The unhinged notions of the Abrahamics only gained traction by infiltrating the Roman Empire, taking advantage of the latter's decay. The idea of deities being jealous of each other is closer to my science fiction stories than anything based in reality.

A male God.
A jealous God.
A God that tells people to kill their children and then goes, "Yeah, nah" at the last moment.
A God that is scared of menstruating women.
A God that thinks gay people are abominations.
A God with serious concerns about shellfish.
A God that punishes rubbernecking by turning people into table condiments.
A God that rescues people after they spend months camping out within the belly of a whale.
At least that God you describe has a little life in him and isn't like the boring, bland God of today's pale moralists.
If one wishes to worship an immature tosser, one may.

Perhaps Pastafarianism would work for you? The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not bland and it is no more ridiculous than Abrahamic myths:
The central creation myth is that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe "after drinking heavily". According to these beliefs, the Monster's intoxication was the cause for a flawed Earth. Furthermore, according to Pastafarianism, all evidence for evolution was planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster in an effort to test the faith of Pastafarians ...
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Greta wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 11:22 pm

Perhaps Pastafarianism would work for you? The Flying Spaghetti Monster is not bland and it is no more ridiculous than Abrahamic myths:
I've always thought that the Flying Spaghetti Monster was just the contemporary version of Medusa, the goddess the Greeks feared the most. https://www.google.com/search?q=medusa& ... 66&bih=625 She's not my type. Actually the Greeks ran to the Beautiful Boy specifically to get away from Her.
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Sy Borg
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

The resemblance is only cosmetic, Gary. It does not turn those who gaze upon it into meatballs.

The Greeks, like the Turks, ran to the Beautiful Boy because he was convenient - soft, pretty, weak, easily-led, with enough orifices to suffice and they didn't get pregnant.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Greta wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 11:49 pm The resemblance is only cosmetic, Gary. It does not turn those who gaze upon it into meatballs.

The Greeks, like the Turks, ran to the Beautiful Boy because he was convenient - soft, pretty, weak, easily-led, with enough orifices to suffice and they didn't get pregnant.
You know about as much about boys as I know about cooking spaghetti, which isn't much. Let me only say that women seem to think they are irresistible and the final meaning of all existence. Most men would probably agree. But not me.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

If you say so.

Whatever, I don't much believe in evil. I believe in entropy and damage. Evil is just nearby entropic force in intimidating amounts. Anyone who is capable of actual evil is, in fact, a victim of entropy in that something is wrong with their mental functioning.

I also believe in progress, that the larger unfolding process, of which biological life is seemingly a phase, has much further to run.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Greta wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 1:22 am If you say so.

Whatever, I don't much believe in evil. I believe in entropy and damage. Evil is just nearby entropic force in intimidating amounts. Anyone who is capable of actual evil is, in fact, a victim of entropy in that something is wrong with their mental functioning.

I also believe in progress, that the larger unfolding process, of which biological life is seemingly a phase, has much further to run.
Whatever
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Felix
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix »

GaryLouisSmith: In the Old Testament, the second commandment says, "The Lord, thy God, is a jealous God." Nowhere does it talk about omni-anything. Have you ever tried to calmly talk reason to someone consumed by jealousy? It ain't pretty and from a distance it is laughable. You are not speaking about the Biblical God, but about the God of rationalists.
Yes, as Greta suggested, the Old Testament Hebrew God is a paragon of virtue who, for example, advised the Israelites to massacre their enemies: "smite them, utterly destroy them; make no covenant with them, nor show any mercy to them."

Is He to be preferred over the loving god of the New Testament to whom Jesus prayed? Was Jesus one of the rationalists to whom you referred?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

GaryLouisSmith wrote:
If that were the case, then we would be stuck on the treadmill of rationalism forever. You assumed that the Christian God is such and such. I think you assumed wrong. In the Old Testament, the second commandment says, "The Lord, thy God, is a jealous God." Nowhere does it talk about omni-anything. Have you ever tried to calmly talk reason to someone consumed by jealousy? It ain't pretty and from a distance it is laughable. You are not speaking about the Biblical God, but about the God of rationalists.
Jahweh was jealous of his status as the monogod where there were other tribal gods and gods of place.This attitude gave his devotees a feeling of entitledness which helped them to conquer other tribes. The Bible can reveal a rational historical narrative. I.e. 'rational' as referring to terrestrial (not other worldly) concerns.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Felix wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 2:38 am
GaryLouisSmith: In the Old Testament, the second commandment says, "The Lord, thy God, is a jealous God." Nowhere does it talk about omni-anything. Have you ever tried to calmly talk reason to someone consumed by jealousy? It ain't pretty and from a distance it is laughable. You are not speaking about the Biblical God, but about the God of rationalists.
Yes, as Greta suggested, the Old Testament Hebrew God is a paragon of virtue who, for example, advised the Israelites to massacre their enemies: "smite them, utterly destroy them; make no covenant with them, nor show any mercy to them."

Is He to be preferred over the loving god of the New Testament to whom Jesus prayed? Was Jesus one of the rationalists to whom you referred?
HA! The New Testament God is the same "paragon of virtue" as the Old Testament God. I think that "loving god" that you mentioned is a New Age fiction. The New Testament is far from being moralistic and rationalistic. Where did you learn theology? Read it again. Jesus in the New Testament is an argumentative guy, a trouble maker, not a New Age hippy. There is no way you can make rational sense out of either testament. Nor would I want to. Moralists like you are destroying both philosophy and theology.
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