If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Belindi
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

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Consul wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 3:31 pm
Belindi wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 4:02 amOntological things , or in other words, things that are separate from the world exist in their uniqueness whether or not some analyser analyses them and sorts them into kinds of things.
What is an "ontological thing"? If it's simply an entity, then all ontological things are part of the world, including particulars and universals (if there are such entities), and no matter whether they are concrete or abstract entities.
By an "ontological thing" I meant a unique set of attributes which together have a causal effect on other sets of attributes. An entity. The world may be understood not as the aggregate of all entities but as the ordered set of entities which relate causally with each other.

The idea of nature as ordered by causal necessity (or even ordered by synchronicity) is a matter of faith and is the basis of god-belief. I'm not trying to say the belief in metaphysical order is more likely to be true because it's the basis of god-belief.

Despite that metaphysical order and causal necessity are the basis of god-belief the problem of evil is irrelevant as the problem appears when omnibenevolence and omnipotence are attributed to god.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Felix wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 3:27 pm
GaryLouisSmith: Jesus in the New Testament is an argumentative guy, a trouble maker, not a New Age hippy. There is no way you can make rational sense out of either testament.
I guess St. Augustine was an ignoramus then. Don't you remember the '60's? - a lot of new age hippies were troublemakers.

How do you decide which accounts of Christ and his words and deeds are true or not? You said before you do not believe in enlightenment, that must mean you don't think he was enlightened? So he was, what, just another wild and crazy guy, but more clever than most?
I think you don't understand what Christianity is. In Jesus, the Word because FLESH, it did not become an enlightened mind in a human being. It is the flesh and blood of Jesus that is our salvation. You must eat and drink that. That of course makes it similar to the Orphic religion. It is a wild Dionysian thing. You are such a rationalist intellectual. Get over it. Look to the flesh and eating.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by frailRearranger »

Floyd wrote: February 27th, 2007, 10:30 am If there is a God, why is there evil?
Many end their question here, and to them I reply, "Why wouldn't there be?"

Ultimately, that will be my reply to you, but you have already begun to offer an answer to my question by asking a slightly more specific question:
Floyd wrote: February 27th, 2007, 10:30 am Why would a loving God do this?
Why would there exist evil if there exists a loving God?

What do you mean by God? I'm guessing you mean something roughly along the lines of, "that entity which makes the universe as it is." Now, depending on the limitations of your God's omnipotence (assuming He is omnipotent in any sense), evil might exist because of powers outside of His control. For example, perhaps He willingly surrendered some of His power to the free will of His creations, thereby allowing them the power to create evil.

What do you mean by evil? If you have any notion of "evil" such that you and your God might have differing notions of "evil," then perhaps you have your answer. Perhaps God's ways are not your ways. Perhaps that which is "evil" to you, one of many biological mortals, is not "evil" by God's standards.

What do you mean by love? God's love is often understood as being agapé. Agapé is unconditional. Being unconditional, it is extended equally to the "good" and to the "evil." In other words, I don't see why an unconditionally loving God would love good any more than He loves evil.

So, why wouldn't there exist evil if there exists a loving God?
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix »

In Jesus, the Word because FLESH, it did not become an enlightened mind in a human being.
That is Catholic theology... I see, you pick and choose from Christian pagan or Catholic theology to suit your needs.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Consul
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Consul »

Recommened reading:

David Lewis: Evil for Freedom's Sake? (PDF)

"Christianity teaches that whenever evil is done, God had ample warning. He could have prevented it, but He didn’t. He could have stopped it midway, but He didn’t. He could have rescued the victims of the evil, but – at least in many cases – He didn’t. In short, God is an accessory before, during, and after the fact to countless evil deeds, great and small.

An explanation is not far to seek. The obvious hypothesis is that the Christian God is really some sort of devil. Maybe He is a devil as popularly conceived, driven by malice. Or maybe He is unintelligibly capricious. Or maybe He is a fanatical artist who cares only for the aesthetic quality of creation – perhaps the abstract beauty of getting rich variety to emerge from a few simple laws, or perhaps the concrete drama of human life with all its diversity – and cares nothing for the good of the creatures whose lives are woven into His masterpiece. (Just as a tragedian has no business providing a happy end out of compassion for his characters.) But no; for Christianity also teaches that God is morally perfect and perfectly benevolent, and that He loves all of His creatures; and that these things are true in a sense not a million miles from the sense in which we attribute morality, benevolence, or love to one another.

We turn next to the hypothesis that God permits evil-doing for the sake of its good effects. And indeed we know that sometimes good does come of evil, and doubtless in more ways than we are able to discover. But omnipotence is not bound by laws of cause and effect. God can make anything follow anything; He never has to allow evil so that good may come. Cause-and-effect theodicy cannot succeed. Not all by itself, anyway; the most it can be is part of some theodicy that also has another chapter to explain why God does not pursue His good ends by better means.

A hypothesis that God allows evil for the sake of some good might work if there was a logical, not merely a causal, connection between allowing the evil and gaining the good. Therefore Christians have often gone in for free-will theodicy: the hypothesis that God allows evildoing for the sake of freedom. He leaves His creatures free because their freedom is of great value; leaving them free logically implies allowing them to do evil; then it is not inevitable, but it is unsurprising, that evil sometimes ensues. In this paper, I shall examine free-will theodicy, consider some choices, and consider some difficulties to which various choices lead.…"
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Sy Borg
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

Consul. The Devil has arrived and would like to engage in a little advocacy.

What if omnipotence is God's potential and not its current capacity? Maybe this stage of suffering is just part of God's growth towards something that will effectively become omnipotent? (as per Clarke's third law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic").

What if biological sentience is a brief billion-year phase leading to a non-biological phase that will be amazing and wonderful and last for hundreds of billions of years?

Would an entity with a trillion-year lifespan be much worried about a mere billion years of torment (the current age of nervous systems) in their youth, or would that seem like just a brief, necessary period of discomfort, soon to be shrugged off?
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Felix wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 10:41 pm
In Jesus, the Word because FLESH, it did not become an enlightened mind in a human being.
That is Catholic theology... I see, you pick and choose from Christian pagan or Catholic theology to suit your needs.
Of course, there is not such thing as the one true Christianity. From the beginning there have been many Christianities. What did you expect me to do?
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Consul
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Consul »

There are kinds of gratuitous and pointless suffering which are plainly and flatly incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god. Take cluster headaches as a drastic example, which are the most intense and most excruciating kind of pain humans can experience. They are also called "suicide headaches"—for reasons you'll understand if you read the following:

"Basic Symptoms of Cluster Headaches:

The symptoms of cluster headaches appear abruptly and the pain is incredibly severe. Many times described by completely terrified patients getting their first attack as thinking they are having an aneurysm or stroke, a ruptured blood vessel bleeding out in the brain, etc. Sometimes the feeling of being shot in the head and with most all cases patients consistently describe the horrific real and terrifying feeling that death is most eminent and only moments away caused by such powerful and violent pain. It can go from no pain to peaking with powerful intensity in just minutes and can last from fifteen minutes to three hours multiple times daily and nightly but rarely longer than three hours per attack. The pain is caused by irritation & activation of the branches of the trigeminal nerve.

The intense violent stabbing pain will last between 15 minutes to 3 hours and may be accompanied by redness of the eye with excessive tearing, nasal congestion or runny nose, swelling of the eyelid, forehead or facial sweating, severe restlessness, agitation and some case sensitivity to light.
Analogies of this extremely severe pain have been described as feeling like a hot poker being inserted into the eye, a knife being pounded in and out of the eye and temple, an ice pick being shoved into the eye into the brain, etc."


Source: https://medcraveonline.com/JNSK/JNSK-04-00146.pdf

Here's a poor fella having a cluster-headache attack. (It's hard to watch.) When a theologian tells me that God might have justifying moral reasons for not releasing him from his agony, I'll tell him: Go fu#$ yourself!

"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Sy Borg
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

The Devil's Advocate is not convinced by the above appeal to emotions. If we don't believe in God, do we instead blame the Earth for its insensitivity in allowing such biological malfunctions to occur?

But God is not just god of Earth, nor just of the solar system, nor of just the Milky Way. God is beyond the Virgo supercluster and, compared with God, Laniakea is a cell.

So why should an entity of such scope and influence, give a fu#$ about someone's cluster headaches, or rape or torture or kidney stones, difficult birth or lack of compassionate euthanasia? Not to mention abortions or a person's sexuality or gender identity. It's all just details to a universal deity!

Thus, God is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent. In a universe that is still dominated by chaos (aka Satan), God is only in the early stages of becoming. A proto-deity if you like. Lots of potential but still a bit of a blunderer.

God is still too young to be allowed an adult's toga, so its creation must be patient and have ... faith :)
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Consul
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Consul »

Greta wrote: September 24th, 2019, 12:08 amSo why should an entity of such scope and influence, give a fu#$ about someone's cluster headaches, or rape or torture or kidney stones, difficult birth or lack of compassionate euthanasia? Not to mention abortions or a person's sexuality or gender identity. It's all just details to a universal deity!
Simply because nobody is a good—let alone all-good—person unless s/he does care about the suffering of other persons!
Of course, if God exists and he is a sadistic devil, then the incompatibility disappears.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Consul wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 11:56 pm There are kinds of gratuitous and pointless suffering which are plainly and flatly incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god. Take cluster headaches as a drastic example, which are the most intense and most excruciating kind of pain humans can experience. They are also called "suicide headaches"—for reasons you'll understand if you read the following:

"Basic Symptoms of Cluster Headaches:

The symptoms of cluster headaches appear abruptly and the pain is incredibly severe. Many times described by completely terrified patients getting their first attack as thinking they are having an aneurysm or stroke, a ruptured blood vessel bleeding out in the brain, etc. Sometimes the feeling of being shot in the head and with most all cases patients consistently describe the horrific real and terrifying feeling that death is most eminent and only moments away caused by such powerful and violent pain. It can go from no pain to peaking with powerful intensity in just minutes and can last from fifteen minutes to three hours multiple times daily and nightly but rarely longer than three hours per attack. The pain is caused by irritation & activation of the branches of the trigeminal nerve.

The intense violent stabbing pain will last between 15 minutes to 3 hours and may be accompanied by redness of the eye with excessive tearing, nasal congestion or runny nose, swelling of the eyelid, forehead or facial sweating, severe restlessness, agitation and some case sensitivity to light.
Analogies of this extremely severe pain have been described as feeling like a hot poker being inserted into the eye, a knife being pounded in and out of the eye and temple, an ice pick being shoved into the eye into the brain, etc."


Source: https://medcraveonline.com/JNSK/JNSK-04-00146.pdf

Here's a poor fella having a cluster-headache attack. (It's hard to watch.) When a theologian tells me that God might have justifying moral reasons for not releasing him from his agony, I'll tell him: Go fu#$ yourself!

Consul, you don't know what you're talking about. I and my holly-roller, Pentecostal grandmother have both suffered from terrible headaches. Thankfully, mine stopped about 13 years ago. I don't know if they were cluster or not, but it makes no different. One simply has to go to bed and wait for them to stop. Anyway, it is often the case that people who have religious visions or who have paranormal experiences have sickness of one type or another that goes along with it. Pain and sickness usually accompanies religious experiences. There's nothing you can do about it. It's just fact and you live with it.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

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GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 24th, 2019, 12:31 amConsul, you don't know what you're talking about. I and my holly-roller, Pentecostal grandmother have both suffered from terrible headaches. Thankfully, mine stopped about 13 years ago. I don't know if they were cluster or not, but it makes no different. One simply has to go to bed and wait for them to stop. Anyway, it is often the case that people who have religious visions or who have paranormal experiences have sickness of one type or another that goes along with it. Pain and sickness usually accompanies religious experiences. There's nothing you can do about it. It's just fact and you live with it.
I'm not speaking from my own experience, but cluster headaches are much more painful than migraine.

If there were an omnipotent god, he could do something about the pain and sickness, and he would be morally obliged to do something about it! There's a paragraph in German penal law titled unterlassene Hilfeleistung, according to which you're legally obliged to help other people in case of an emergency if you can do so (without risking your own life).
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Consul wrote: September 24th, 2019, 1:06 am
GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 24th, 2019, 12:31 amConsul, you don't know what you're talking about. I and my holly-roller, Pentecostal grandmother have both suffered from terrible headaches. Thankfully, mine stopped about 13 years ago. I don't know if they were cluster or not, but it makes no different. One simply has to go to bed and wait for them to stop. Anyway, it is often the case that people who have religious visions or who have paranormal experiences have sickness of one type or another that goes along with it. Pain and sickness usually accompanies religious experiences. There's nothing you can do about it. It's just fact and you live with it.
I'm not speaking from my own experience, but cluster headaches are much more painful than migraine.

If there were an omnipotent god, he could do something about the pain and sickness, and he would be morally obliged to do something about it! There's a paragraph in German penal law titled unterlassene Hilfeleistung, according to which you're legally obliged to help other people in case of an emergency if you can do so (without risking your own life).
A fact of life is a fact of life and German penal law and all your moralizing are totally irrelevant.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix »

Well, it does say in the Bible that "God is not a respector of persons," so I don't know why anyone would expect him to behave like Santa Claus, but noone is going to worship a god that has little or no regard for human life.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Consul wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 4:00 pm
GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 8:54 amSo, in my conceptual philosophy, I set out a program for building an ontological system, but that system actually cannot be done in the everyday, practical world.
For example, in that above I talked about building a philosophy out of impossible things. I was going to speak the unspeakable and think the unthinkable. I talked about things that were beyond existence. And I talked about an unknowing knowing. It is all an unrealizable set of instructions. Such is purely conceptual art. It is more charming, than useful.
Conceptual analysis (clarification) is part of the practice of metaphysics/ontology, but this doesn't mean that metaphysics/ontology is nothing but "conceptual art". From my perspective, it is the speculative part of theoretical science; and the primary aim of science is truth, not beauty.
Beauty isn't an objective criterion of theory choice; and there is no logical connection between beautifulness and truth-conduciveness, in the sense that the most beautiful theory among a group of theories on the same subject matter is most likely to be the true one.
Accordingly, I'm interested in finding true metaphysical/ontological theories, ones which truly represent reality. Whether I'll ever succeed in finding them is another question, but the epistemological problems of metaphysics/ontology don't entail that there are no metaphysical/ontological truths or facts to be found.

"As I conceive of metaphysics it is largely an activity of conceptual clarification in the service of attaining the most plausible view of the universe in the light of a synthesis of the various sciences. Plausibility in the light of total science is the ontologist's touchstone. On this view there is of course no sharp line between science and metaphysics. Metaphysics is the most conjectural and conceptually interesting end of total science. Many scientific theories give rise to highly conceptual discussions of the sort that we can recognize as typical of what is generally regarded as philosophy. Consider for example the well-known discussion between Bohr and Einstein (Bohr, 1959). The more the scientist challenges commonly held assumptions, assumptions that are so deep rooted they are rarely thought about but are taken for granted, the greater the similarity between the scientist and the traditional metaphysician."
(p. 50)

"Metaphysics is the conjectural end of science. Its ontological claims must be tested by general scientific plausibility. Plausibility is largely a matter of maximal coherence of our beliefs in the light of often recalcitrant experience: in other words not only must theoretical beliefs cohere with one another but they must cohere with beliefs derived from observation and experiment."
(p. 51)

(Smart, J. J. C. "Methodology and Ontology." In Imre Lakatos and Theories of Scientific Change, edited by Kostas Gavroglu, Yorgos Goudaroulis, and Pantelis Nicolacopoulos, 47-57. Dordrecht: Kluwer Academic, 1989.)

"I regard metaphysics as continuous with science. Science gets metaphysical when it gets very general and controversial and relates itself also to humanistic and other non-typically scientific concerns. A criterion for metaphysical truth is plausibility in the light of total science."

(Smart, J. J. C. "Physicalism and Emergence." 1982. In Essays Metaphysical and Moral: Selected Philosophical Papers, 246-255. Oxford: Blackwell, 1987. p. 248)
Conceptual art has nothing to do with beauty. It has to do with there being instructions by the artist for carrying out a project, but the project is either not carried out or if it is the object is irrelevant to the work. More than not, it simply cannot be carried out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHLs76HLon4&t=384s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSi61l7hxxQ&t=2265s .

Consider Wittgenstein’s Tractatus. What he is doing there is that he is building an ontology by talking about Logic. There are bare particulars, universals, relations, connectors, quantifiers, various nexus, thing, complex, thingness, complexity, fact, facticity and so on. Then he says the really none of that can be spoken. At least inside of logic. One must stand outside of logic to say all that. Actually it is all ineffable. Finally he says that what cannot be spoken, we must pass over in silence. His project failed. He wanted to get up on the roof of thought and logic and then throw away the ladder. He ended up nowhere. He had a concept that couldn’t be carried out. In his later books his project was just to write maxims to guide a person in thinking about logic and math. That project was successful, but it was boring.

Anyway in conceptual art and I suppose in conceptual philosophy, you devise a project to come up with an ontological system. Actually it will probably never be carried out. Maybe it can’t be. But that's fine, because the set of instructions, the concept, is the important thing. So how does that apply to my philosophy? Good question.
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