If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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GrayArea
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GrayArea »

Greatest I am wrote: May 19th, 2022, 11:17 am
GrayArea wrote: May 17th, 2022, 6:31 am Because we define "good" wrong. Because the human definition of "good" is only what human beings approve. Thus it is finite and subjective to a set point of view within existence.

On the other hand, God approves existence itself, thus why he made it (If he exists, that is). To him, all of existence is the definition of "good". Everything good and evil to us must all be good to God.

This could also be why serving God is the good above all good when it comes to Christianity or Islam.
This is why scriptures have God saying that he created good and evil for his pleasure.

We have to dither our what pleasure God would get from creating evil.

That is likely also why Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

Do you see the necessity for evil and sin in reality?

Regards
DL
It's not like evil and sin HAS to exist in order for reality to exist, just that evil and sin are but consequence of reality existing. If there is God, then I would believe that he did not create good and evil for his pleasure, but more as a causal consequence of creation itself which directly stems from his nature.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Sy Borg
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote: May 19th, 2022, 6:19 am
Sy Borg wrote: May 19th, 2022, 3:34 am Haha, touche Eric! I just find unsubstantiated assumptions made with complete certainty unphilosophical, even antithetical to philosophy. It's one thing to believe oneself, another to expect others to accept unproven and unqualified claims made without attracting a critique.

Okay, let's say there's a universal being. Let's say it exists because life in the billions of Big Bangs before ours reached something like an Omega Point, and it can now survive, or even shape the nature of, Big Bangs. It is not a He. A reproductive organ at that scale does not bear thinking about. It is an It. If humans were made in God's image, then God must be both.

An entity of such magnitude, that has existed for countless aeons beyond anything we can imagine, is not going to worry about the "growing pains" of its infants. What do we care for the death of a cell in our body? Microbes and cells are (usually) too little for us to worry about. So that would be the dynamic. Just as we wish our cellular and microbial communities well in a very general sense, demonstrating this with exercise, good food and happy thoughts. Billions still die every day and, without their deaths, we would ourselves die. The system would break down. So this hypothetical God did the same - providing us with a fairly quiescent star, a suitable sized rocky planet that's lightly coated in water and has a stabilising satellite.

"Evil" to humans would, to God, be utterly trivial collateral damage, not to mention that death is essential to keep the overall system growing. Evil to us would be infinitely less than a flea bite to God.
Christians like Eric believe God does care about us and sparrows too. Eric and others also think God is all powerful in a physical sense. But God is not a physical force He is a spiritual force. Some Christians forget God is spirit not extended matter. A spiritual force is psychological not material . It's human psyches that care about other men and sparrows too.

God is a product of human psyches. Unfortunately for materialist Christians like Eric science has such power over their imaginations that they have to make God, Who is all-spirit, into an unimaginably enormous physical thing.
Well put! If an objective God cared about the minutiae, then most denizens of the biosphere would not have to murder (often in gruesome, tortuous ways) other organisms just so they can survive. A God that cared how individuals felt would create a natural system where organisms freely and lovingly exchanged energies to their mutual benefit.

A subjective God created in Man's image, of course, cares a great deal about that individual - but that God still cares absolutely nothing for trillions (including other species) of others. A subjective God demands the sacrifice of other animals and plants so as to survive.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Sy Borg wrote: May 19th, 2022, 9:07 pm
Belindi wrote: May 19th, 2022, 6:19 am
Sy Borg wrote: May 19th, 2022, 3:34 am Haha, touche Eric! I just find unsubstantiated assumptions made with complete certainty unphilosophical, even antithetical to philosophy. It's one thing to believe oneself, another to expect others to accept unproven and unqualified claims made without attracting a critique.

Okay, let's say there's a universal being. Let's say it exists because life in the billions of Big Bangs before ours reached something like an Omega Point, and it can now survive, or even shape the nature of, Big Bangs. It is not a He. A reproductive organ at that scale does not bear thinking about. It is an It. If humans were made in God's image, then God must be both.

An entity of such magnitude, that has existed for countless aeons beyond anything we can imagine, is not going to worry about the "growing pains" of its infants. What do we care for the death of a cell in our body? Microbes and cells are (usually) too little for us to worry about. So that would be the dynamic. Just as we wish our cellular and microbial communities well in a very general sense, demonstrating this with exercise, good food and happy thoughts. Billions still die every day and, without their deaths, we would ourselves die. The system would break down. So this hypothetical God did the same - providing us with a fairly quiescent star, a suitable sized rocky planet that's lightly coated in water and has a stabilising satellite.

"Evil" to humans would, to God, be utterly trivial collateral damage, not to mention that death is essential to keep the overall system growing. Evil to us would be infinitely less than a flea bite to God.
Christians like Eric believe God does care about us and sparrows too. Eric and others also think God is all powerful in a physical sense. But God is not a physical force He is a spiritual force. Some Christians forget God is spirit not extended matter. A spiritual force is psychological not material . It's human psyches that care about other men and sparrows too.

God is a product of human psyches. Unfortunately for materialist Christians like Eric science has such power over their imaginations that they have to make God, Who is all-spirit, into an unimaginably enormous physical thing.
Well put! If an objective God cared about the minutiae, then most denizens of the biosphere would not have to murder (often in gruesome, tortuous ways) other organisms just so they can survive. A God that cared how individuals felt would create a natural system where organisms freely and lovingly exchanged energies to their mutual benefit.

A subjective God created in Man's image, of course, cares a great deal about that individual - but that God still cares absolutely nothing for trillions (including other species) of others. A subjective God demands the sacrifice of other animals and plants so as to survive.
Not only is God spirit but God is also not all-powerful spirit. He can't dispel all evil. There is a constant battle going on between the good and the evil. Even if there were no humans there would still be animals dying and suffering.

God is a reasonable God if He exists only as a name for man's search for and aspiration to good, truth, and beauty.

The sky god Ngewo (West Africa) is a creator spirit who does not intervene in history. The Middle Eastern sky god whom we call God, or Allah, has been coopted into Islam and Christianity to account for creation and, unlike Ngewo and the God of the deists, God/Allah is presumed by modern Xians and Muslims to intervene in the workings of His creation.
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Sy Borg
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote: May 20th, 2022, 4:24 am Not only is God spirit but God is also not all-powerful spirit. He can't dispel all evil. There is a constant battle going on between the good and the evil. Even if there were no humans there would still be animals dying and suffering.

God is a reasonable God if He exists only as a name for man's search for and aspiration to good, truth, and beauty.

The sky god Ngewo (West Africa) is a creator spirit who does not intervene in history. The Middle Eastern sky god whom we call God, or Allah, has been coopted into Islam and Christianity to account for creation and, unlike Ngewo and the God of the deists, God/Allah is presumed by modern Xians and Muslims to intervene in the workings of His creation.
God not only can't dispel all evil, it also came up with a schema that regularly relies on murder and absolutely relies on death to function at all.

The trouble with deism is that it adds an extra layer, not Occam-friendly. Either nature recreates itself through probabilities over countless iterations or a deity creating a nature recreates itself through probabilities over countless iterations.

If a deity was intervening, then there would be evidence. There's evidence for the placebo-style benefits of faith per se, but not necessarily faith in anything in particular. For the superstitious in earlier times, a lucky rabbit foot would give that confidence. The rabbit was presumably not so lucky.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

GrayArea wrote: May 19th, 2022, 8:26 pm
Greatest I am wrote: May 19th, 2022, 11:17 am
GrayArea wrote: May 17th, 2022, 6:31 am Because we define "good" wrong. Because the human definition of "good" is only what human beings approve. Thus it is finite and subjective to a set point of view within existence.

On the other hand, God approves existence itself, thus why he made it (If he exists, that is). To him, all of existence is the definition of "good". Everything good and evil to us must all be good to God.

This could also be why serving God is the good above all good when it comes to Christianity or Islam.
This is why scriptures have God saying that he created good and evil for his pleasure.

We have to dither our what pleasure God would get from creating evil.

That is likely also why Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

Do you see the necessity for evil and sin in reality?

Regards
DL
It's not like evil and sin HAS to exist in order for reality to exist, just that evil and sin are but consequence of reality existing. If there is God, then I would believe that he did not create good and evil for his pleasure, but more as a causal consequence of creation itself which directly stems from his nature.
Good that you agree that our evolution must include, by consequence or not, sin or evil.

As to God, we can know nothing concrete about a God's nature, until a God steps up.

I think we are agreeing that God is nature.

A damned good way to think these days, when we are destroying the eco system that sustains us.

Nature has no problem of evil. Just a God would.

Regards
DL
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

EricPH wrote: May 19th, 2022, 12:22 am [
quote=GrayArea

God desires for only good to happen. Why would God desire evil?
If so, are you saying that God's plan has somehow been derailed?

Is the all powerful God not all powerful?

He cannot be if we puny humans can screw the plan up.

Regards
DL
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

EricPH wrote: May 19th, 2022, 3:16 am In the spirit of the thread title, you would need to believe there is a God. It might help if the title was,,,

If, and only if there is a God, why is there evil.?

If you start from the assumption there is no God, then the thread title might be....

If there is No god, why did god create evil?
Would you know good without it's antonym?

No you would not.

In our dualistic reality, we have ranges of good and evil for all concepts.

I can't come up with an exception. Can you?

Regards
DL
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GrayArea »

Greatest I am wrote: May 20th, 2022, 11:14 am
GrayArea wrote: May 19th, 2022, 8:26 pm
Greatest I am wrote: May 19th, 2022, 11:17 am
GrayArea wrote: May 17th, 2022, 6:31 am Because we define "good" wrong. Because the human definition of "good" is only what human beings approve. Thus it is finite and subjective to a set point of view within existence.

On the other hand, God approves existence itself, thus why he made it (If he exists, that is). To him, all of existence is the definition of "good". Everything good and evil to us must all be good to God.

This could also be why serving God is the good above all good when it comes to Christianity or Islam.
This is why scriptures have God saying that he created good and evil for his pleasure.

We have to dither our what pleasure God would get from creating evil.

That is likely also why Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

Do you see the necessity for evil and sin in reality?

Regards
DL
It's not like evil and sin HAS to exist in order for reality to exist, just that evil and sin are but consequence of reality existing. If there is God, then I would believe that he did not create good and evil for his pleasure, but more as a causal consequence of creation itself which directly stems from his nature.
Good that you agree that our evolution must include, by consequence or not, sin or evil.

As to God, we can know nothing concrete about a God's nature, until a God steps up.

I think we are agreeing that God is nature.

A damned good way to think these days, when we are destroying the eco system that sustains us.

Nature has no problem of evil. Just a God would.

Regards
DL
Ah, but here is where our beliefs slightly differ. You may believe that God is the nature that surrounds us, but on the other hand, I personally believe that God is the nature that surrounds us as well as the people who destroy it. He should simply be all-encompassing. After all, humans are a part of nature—if they weren't, they would not have existed.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

GrayArea wrote: May 20th, 2022, 4:33 pm
Greatest I am wrote: May 20th, 2022, 11:14 am
GrayArea wrote: May 19th, 2022, 8:26 pm
Greatest I am wrote: May 19th, 2022, 11:17 am

This is why scriptures have God saying that he created good and evil for his pleasure.

We have to dither our what pleasure God would get from creating evil.

That is likely also why Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

Do you see the necessity for evil and sin in reality?

Regards
DL
It's not like evil and sin HAS to exist in order for reality to exist, just that evil and sin are but consequence of reality existing. If there is God, then I would believe that he did not create good and evil for his pleasure, but more as a causal consequence of creation itself which directly stems from his nature.
Good that you agree that our evolution must include, by consequence or not, sin or evil.

As to God, we can know nothing concrete about a God's nature, until a God steps up.

I think we are agreeing that God is nature.

A damned good way to think these days, when we are destroying the eco system that sustains us.

Nature has no problem of evil. Just a God would.

Regards
DL
Ah, but here is where our beliefs slightly differ. You may believe that God is the nature that surrounds us, but on the other hand, I personally believe that God is the nature that surrounds us as well as the people who destroy it. He should simply be all-encompassing. After all, humans are a part of nature—if they weren't, they would not have existed.
Mine was also an all encompassing statement and I do bit see that difference.

Gnostic Christians are universalists and unlike Christianity and Islam, have ties equality of all souls to God's own righteousness.

This can apply to nature but not to some supernatural God.

Soul then would be defined by the wise as nature's life force and gift that has animated us.

We can then truthfully say that nature creates us and sustains us and deserves our veneration more than some supernatural fiction.

Black and white. No Grey.

Regards
DL
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

I totally agree with the idea that we define "good wrong", as I believe GrayArea said. But then all such qualifying definitions are generally relative to the human experience. Of course, our interpretation of what is good is very anthropocentric and any God that I can imagine to have been responsible for life on this planet or in the universe would likely care about all of Its creations.

I also agree with the thought that any such God, if we give it the benefit of the doubt, also doesn't "desire evil", but again, assuming Its existence, it certainly doesn't seem to mind at all that suffering occurs, or that evil occurs for those who wish to call it that.

It would just be so much more simpler and less convoluted if we just accept that there is no God and that all of this that affects us is of our own human experience and even of our own doing, and we just have to take responsibility wherever it's due and strive to make our short existence here the best it can be, for all of us and for all life for that matter.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GrayArea »

Pelegrin_1 wrote: May 20th, 2022, 6:00 pm I totally agree with the idea that we define "good wrong", as I believe GrayArea said. But then all such qualifying definitions are generally relative to the human experience. Of course, our interpretation of what is good is very anthropocentric and any God that I can imagine to have been responsible for life on this planet or in the universe would likely care about all of Its creations.

I also agree with the thought that any such God, if we give it the benefit of the doubt, also doesn't "desire evil", but again, assuming Its existence, it certainly doesn't seem to mind at all that suffering occurs, or that evil occurs for those who wish to call it that.

It would just be so much more simpler and less convoluted if we just accept that there is no God and that all of this that affects us is of our own human experience and even of our own doing, and we just have to take responsibility wherever it's due and strive to make our short existence here the best it can be, for all of us and for all life for that matter.
The conundrum here is that the existence or nonexistence of God does not affect the concept of reality in any way that we can think of so far. One of the reasons why I am an Agnostic.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GrayArea »

GrayArea wrote: May 20th, 2022, 7:36 pm
Pelegrin_1 wrote: May 20th, 2022, 6:00 pm I totally agree with the idea that we define "good wrong", as I believe GrayArea said. But then all such qualifying definitions are generally relative to the human experience. Of course, our interpretation of what is good is very anthropocentric and any God that I can imagine to have been responsible for life on this planet or in the universe would likely care about all of Its creations.

I also agree with the thought that any such God, if we give it the benefit of the doubt, also doesn't "desire evil", but again, assuming Its existence, it certainly doesn't seem to mind at all that suffering occurs, or that evil occurs for those who wish to call it that.

It would just be so much more simpler and less convoluted if we just accept that there is no God and that all of this that affects us is of our own human experience and even of our own doing, and we just have to take responsibility wherever it's due and strive to make our short existence here the best it can be, for all of us and for all life for that matter.
The conundrum here is that the existence or nonexistence of God does not affect the concept of reality in any way that we can think of so far. One of the reasons why I am an Agnostic.
Or to be more specific, the reason why I can't seem to differentiate God from Reality and vice versa.
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GrayArea »

Greatest I am wrote: May 20th, 2022, 5:15 pm
GrayArea wrote: May 20th, 2022, 4:33 pm
Greatest I am wrote: May 20th, 2022, 11:14 am
GrayArea wrote: May 19th, 2022, 8:26 pm

It's not like evil and sin HAS to exist in order for reality to exist, just that evil and sin are but consequence of reality existing. If there is God, then I would believe that he did not create good and evil for his pleasure, but more as a causal consequence of creation itself which directly stems from his nature.
Good that you agree that our evolution must include, by consequence or not, sin or evil.

As to God, we can know nothing concrete about a God's nature, until a God steps up.

I think we are agreeing that God is nature.

A damned good way to think these days, when we are destroying the eco system that sustains us.

Nature has no problem of evil. Just a God would.

Regards
DL
Ah, but here is where our beliefs slightly differ. You may believe that God is the nature that surrounds us, but on the other hand, I personally believe that God is the nature that surrounds us as well as the people who destroy it. He should simply be all-encompassing. After all, humans are a part of nature—if they weren't, they would not have existed.
Mine was also an all encompassing statement and I do bit see that difference.

Gnostic Christians are universalists and unlike Christianity and Islam, have ties equality of all souls to God's own righteousness.

This can apply to nature but not to some supernatural God.

Soul then would be defined by the wise as nature's life force and gift that has animated us.

We can then truthfully say that nature creates us and sustains us and deserves our veneration more than some supernatural fiction.

Black and white. No Grey.

Regards
DL
Sometimes we tend to differentiate ourselves from nature for the sake of convenience. But sometimes, we don't really have to!
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Greatest I am »

GrayArea wrote: May 20th, 2022, 10:07 pm
Greatest I am wrote: May 20th, 2022, 5:15 pm
GrayArea wrote: May 20th, 2022, 4:33 pm
Greatest I am wrote: May 20th, 2022, 11:14 am

Good that you agree that our evolution must include, by consequence or not, sin or evil.

As to God, we can know nothing concrete about a God's nature, until a God steps up.

I think we are agreeing that God is nature.

A damned good way to think these days, when we are destroying the eco system that sustains us.

Nature has no problem of evil. Just a God would.

Regards
DL
Ah, but here is where our beliefs slightly differ. You may believe that God is the nature that surrounds us, but on the other hand, I personally believe that God is the nature that surrounds us as well as the people who destroy it. He should simply be all-encompassing. After all, humans are a part of nature—if they weren't, they would not have existed.
Mine was also an all encompassing statement and I do bit see that difference.

Gnostic Christians are universalists and unlike Christianity and Islam, have ties equality of all souls to God's own righteousness.

This can apply to nature but not to some supernatural God.

Soul then would be defined by the wise as nature's life force and gift that has animated us.

We can then truthfully say that nature creates us and sustains us and deserves our veneration more than some supernatural fiction.

Black and white. No Grey.

Regards
DL
Sometimes we tend to differentiate ourselves from nature for the sake of convenience. But sometimes, we don't really have to!
True. We should embrace and venerate our nature.

Remember though that Jesus said he was not of this world.

As a part of nature, I recognize that we are all in this together, alone.

If fully amerced in the "all" concept, we would not back away from reality and could not likely judge it accurately.

We have to leave the cave to see what is outside, as Socrates would say.

Regards
DL
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

GrayArea wrote: May 20th, 2022, 7:37 pm
GrayArea wrote: May 20th, 2022, 7:36 pm
The conundrum here is that the existence or nonexistence of God does not affect the concept of reality in any way that we can think of so far. One of the reasons why I am an Agnostic.
Or to be more specific, the reason why I can't seem to differentiate God from Reality and vice versa.
Rather than conflating the two, simply your perspective and say that we're just dealing with reality. The reality of the universe, our little space in it, and our human experience (as a species and during the brief lifetime that each one of us has).
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