If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: September 17th, 2019, 10:40 pmThe strongest form is the view that universals are also parts (constituents/components) of the particulars instantiating/exemplifying them.
Again, polyadic universals are a big problem here, because relations can hardly be considered as parts of their relata, being "adherences" rather than "inherences".
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Consul »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 17th, 2019, 7:48 pmI think you are not alone on this forum in not knowing what Platonism is. Most, like you, probably think it is a kind of naturalism, which believes that universals, if they do exist, are somehow “in” the matter of the object. For example all bears are bears because the Form of Bear is in the matter of a bear.
As opposed to Armstrong, Jonathan Lowe believes (believed–he's dead too) in substantial universals or kind-universals as a kind of universals sui generis that are irrreducible to attributes, i.e. properties or relations. He believes that kinds cannot exist uninstantiated, but he rejects the hylomorphistic view that kinds are parts of their instances, with particulars being matter-form/kind compounds. According to him, particulars are instances of kinds without being partly composed of kind-universals. So kinds are not spatially in their instances.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
GaryLouisSmith
Posts: 1135
Joined: June 2nd, 2019, 2:30 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gustav Bergmann
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Contact:

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Consul wrote: September 17th, 2019, 10:54 pm
GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 17th, 2019, 7:48 pmI think you are not alone on this forum in not knowing what Platonism is. Most, like you, probably think it is a kind of naturalism, which believes that universals, if they do exist, are somehow “in” the matter of the object. For example all bears are bears because the Form of Bear is in the matter of a bear.
As opposed to Armstrong, Jonathan Lowe believes (believed–he's dead too) in substantial universals or kind-universals as a kind of universals sui generis that are irrreducible to attributes, i.e. properties or relations. He believes that kinds cannot exist uninstantiated, but he rejects the hylomorphistic view that kinds are parts of their instances, with particulars being matter-form/kind compounds. According to him, particulars are instances of kinds without being partly composed of kind-universals. So kinds are not spatially in their instances.
I suppose that is why I am not a fan of any of those guys. They leave no room for enchantment. Nor does Bergmann, but I fiddle with his ideas to make them something I can deal with. Do you know of any philosopher who has unexemplified, separate universals such as I have?
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Consul »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 17th, 2019, 11:12 pmDo you know of any philosopher who has unexemplified, separate universals such as I have?
Van Inwagen & Chisholm:

"A transcendent realist is a metaphysician who believes that universals exist, that these universals exist ante res (independently of their instances), that universals are necessarily existent things, that universals are in no sense constituents of particulars, that the only constituents of particulars are their proper parts (other 'smaller' particulars; for example, electrons, submicroscopic particulars, are 'constituents' of macroscopic particulars like cats and canaries), that universals are abstract objects and thus do not and cannot enter into causal relations 'from either end': they can be neither agents nor patients."

(Van Inwagen, Peter. "In Defense of Transcendent Universals." In Metaphysics and Scientific Realism: Essays in Honour of David Malet Armstrong, edited by Francesco F. Calemi, 51-70. Boston: De Gruyter, 2016. p. 67)

"The present theory is 'Platonistic': it is a form of extreme realism. There are attributes (properties). Some of them (e.g., being a dog) are exemplified; some of them (e.g., being a unicorn) are unexemplified; and some of them (e.g., being a round square) cannot be exemplified."

(Chisholm, Roderick M. A Realistic Theory of Categories: An Essay in Ontology. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996. p. 4)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
GaryLouisSmith
Posts: 1135
Joined: June 2nd, 2019, 2:30 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gustav Bergmann
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Contact:

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Consul wrote: September 17th, 2019, 11:28 pm
GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 17th, 2019, 11:12 pmDo you know of any philosopher who has unexemplified, separate universals such as I have?
Van Inwagen & Chisholm:

"A transcendent realist is a metaphysician who believes that universals exist, that these universals exist ante res (independently of their instances), that universals are necessarily existent things, that universals are in no sense constituents of particulars, that the only constituents of particulars are their proper parts (other 'smaller' particulars; for example, electrons, submicroscopic particulars, are 'constituents' of macroscopic particulars like cats and canaries), that universals are abstract objects and thus do not and cannot enter into causal relations 'from either end': they can be neither agents nor patients."

(Van Inwagen, Peter. "In Defense of Transcendent Universals." In Metaphysics and Scientific Realism: Essays in Honour of David Malet Armstrong, edited by Francesco F. Calemi, 51-70. Boston: De Gruyter, 2016. p. 67)

"The present theory is 'Platonistic': it is a form of extreme realism. There are attributes (properties). Some of them (e.g., being a dog) are exemplified; some of them (e.g., being a unicorn) are unexemplified; and some of them (e.g., being a round square) cannot be exemplified."

(Chisholm, Roderick M. A Realistic Theory of Categories: An Essay in Ontology. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996. p. 4)
Thanks. I'm currently interested in "conceptual" art and also the relation between Baudelaire, Symbolism and Platonism. Any thoughts on that?
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix »

I'm currently interested in "conceptual" art and also the relation between Baudelaire, Symbolism and Platonism. Any thoughts on that?
That's pretty much the field of study of analytical psychology, e.g., Man and his Symbols by Carl Jung.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

GaryLouisSmith wrote:
I think you are not alone on this forum in not knowing what Platonism is. Most, like you, probably think it is a kind of naturalism, which believes that universals, if they do exist, are somehow “in” the matter of the object. For example all bears are bears because the Form of Bear is in the matter of a bear.
That's Aristotelian form not Platonic form. You are probably right most people understand the Aristotelian form as it has come to us by way of Aquinas and has been popularised in lots of quite nice hymns. Now that genetic engineering has happened it must be terribly Satanically evil by comparison with God's orders.

How could you, who believe in metaphysical realism, tell the difference between Boy and genetically engineered Boy, or indeed android Boy?
GaryLouisSmith
Posts: 1135
Joined: June 2nd, 2019, 2:30 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gustav Bergmann
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Contact:

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Felix wrote: September 18th, 2019, 3:47 am
I'm currently interested in "conceptual" art and also the relation between Baudelaire, Symbolism and Platonism. Any thoughts on that?
That's pretty much the field of study of analytical psychology, e.g., Man and his Symbols by Carl Jung.
Have you studied conceptual art? If so, can you see any connection between that and Jung?
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

Jung's archetype of the wise old man is diabolical. The wise old man archetype establishes dictators.
GaryLouisSmith
Posts: 1135
Joined: June 2nd, 2019, 2:30 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gustav Bergmann
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Contact:

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Belindi wrote: September 18th, 2019, 4:35 am Jung's archetype of the wise old man is diabolical. The wise old man archetype establishes dictators.
Why did you write that?
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi »

I warned against the wise old man archetype because of the similarity between Jungian archetypes and Platonic Forms. Just because some idea is a Platonic Form, or a Jungian archetype does not mean it's good for us.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix »

GaryLouisSmith: Have you studied conceptual art? If so, can you see any connection between that and Jung?
Frankly, it's been ages since I've read Jung and conceptual art tends to bore me, but similar symbolism appears in both ancient and modern art. Do you not think the Platonic forms come from the human psyche? If not, from whence do they come?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
GaryLouisSmith
Posts: 1135
Joined: June 2nd, 2019, 2:30 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gustav Bergmann
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Contact:

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Felix wrote: September 18th, 2019, 5:12 pm
GaryLouisSmith: Have you studied conceptual art? If so, can you see any connection between that and Jung?
Frankly, it's been ages since I've read Jung and conceptual art tends to bore me, but similar symbolism appears in both ancient and modern art. Do you not think the Platonic forms come from the human psyche? If not, from whence do they come?
Sorry, the word "symbolism" is confusing. I was referring to Symbolism as an art movement in the late nineteenth century. It is often associated with Baudelaire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolism_(arts) and then there is the closely allied era of Decadence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decadent_movement . There was a great amount of Platonism in all that art.

I'm not surprised that you are bored by conceptual art because most people are. I, however, rather like it. And that is why I am curious as to a connection between it and Symbolism as an art movement. I can feel a connection but I quite put my finder on it.
GaryLouisSmith
Posts: 1135
Joined: June 2nd, 2019, 2:30 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gustav Bergmann
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Contact:

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Belindi wrote: September 18th, 2019, 4:15 am GaryLouisSmith wrote:
I think you are not alone on this forum in not knowing what Platonism is. Most, like you, probably think it is a kind of naturalism, which believes that universals, if they do exist, are somehow “in” the matter of the object. For example all bears are bears because the Form of Bear is in the matter of a bear.
That's Aristotelian form not Platonic form. You are probably right most people understand the Aristotelian form as it has come to us by way of Aquinas and has been popularised in lots of quite nice hymns. Now that genetic engineering has happened it must be terribly Satanically evil by comparison with God's orders.

How could you, who believe in metaphysical realism, tell the difference between Boy and genetically engineered Boy, or indeed android Boy?
Yes, I am aware the one might call Aristotle a naturalist and his philosophy a type of naturalism. His universals are "in" the matter of the object, not separate from it as a Platonic Form is.

As for genetic engineering, that is nothing more than a quick, hurry-up way of doing what farmers have done for millennia with creating hybrids. There's nothing fundamentally new there. As for a mechanical boy and the Boy. You still can't seem to get the hang of a Platonic Form as something immaterial, i.e. separated from all material "manifestations" of it. (My interest in conceptual art comes in here.) That said, I, strangely enough, find a mechanical or android boy to be kind of sexy. I have seen boy actors acting like robots. There's something mystically alluring about it. Here boys wear make-up and masks when they are performing the part of the gods in a religious "play". They move in a jerky fashion like an android. I shiver with erotic attraction. I have thought about that for quite a long time and written about it in my very non-academic style.
GaryLouisSmith
Posts: 1135
Joined: June 2nd, 2019, 2:30 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gustav Bergmann
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Contact:

Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Belindi wrote: September 18th, 2019, 3:21 pm I warned against the wise old man archetype because of the similarity between Jungian archetypes and Platonic Forms. Just because some idea is a Platonic Form, or a Jungian archetype does not mean it's good for us.
I think it would help if you thought of the distinction between a substance philosophy and the type of formalism that I have in philosophy.

Is the Boy his inner feelings and self or is he his outer form? A substantialism, usually, will tend to think of the inner being of something and be rather dismissive of the outer appearance as something superficial. I am an anti-substantialist. For me the appearing Form is everything. There is an old saying that the soul is the form of the body. I believe that. That is why I can be turned on by a manikin or a glossy piece of photo-shopped pornography. The form is everything. And that is why people say that my philosophy is immoral; I pay no attention to the inner person, who basically disappears.

My immaterialism is my anti-substantialism. Matter is the dark, hidden interior. In a philosophy of pure form there is no such thing.
So, yes, I think you would judge that to be something not "good for us": It's also why my philosophy is a gay philosophy, And why the Platonic Forms are gay.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021