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Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Misty
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty » August 2nd, 2012, 3:52 pm

I think religion or any other system of belief that would teach children to hurt another human being is wrong. If the belief system demeans or demonizes other humans as trash to be disposed of, it is wrong. However, I do not think Christians of today teach that. There are religions/cultures that do. Today on TV news there was an interview with a Pakistan man who practiced honor killing of his own daughter, gave an example of the worth of females: If you have a plate and drop it, it breaks, it is no good anymore, that is the same with females who are raped. Honor is worth more than their child or any female, their fault or not.(not that that would qualify punishment either way) He was asked if he thinks about his daughter, he said, not at all. They believe all infidels to their religion deserve death. Clearly there are religious beliefs that are a problem in the world. Non religious leaders of countries have murdered people at whim since the beginning of time, too.

Xris, you mentioned Hitler. While he was educated in a Catholic school, he became a member of the occult and killed Christians as well, and anyone else he decided did not deserve to live.

The problem has been and continues to be the hearts of humans, and the insanity that one deems themselves better than another so therefore one must die.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 2nd, 2012, 4:02 pm

Fanman wrote:Xris,

I don't see any harm in a parent teaching their child their beliefs, so long as the parents beliefs are not extremist. One hopes that teaching their children about God will instil good moral values. I don't know why you're bringing Communism and Nazism into the discussion what do they have to do with what we are discussing?
So we are talking about degrees of abuse or abuse? Would you be prepared to devote your life deciding what dogma is acceptable and what is not. My Sunday school teacher told me it was a sin to eat sweets on a Sunday. My mother taught me to tell the truth, by christian standards, but when I did my father hit me. Children have enough conflict in their young lives without parents instilling their beliefs on them. There is time when they are older to debate sensibly on equal terms. Why would you want to impress young minds with your views. Teach them respect but respect them. Teach them empathy for others but show them the ability to think logically.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty » August 2nd, 2012, 4:27 pm

Xris,

Your father hitting you for telling the truth was not a religious based decision but one of an adult exercising unfair power over a child. Your father was a brute with little self esteem. Your mother did not protect you from him.

Children often have one experience that in their minds 'happened all the time', especially when the experience was a painful one. Memories are often not reliable. While your memories are yours alone, other children have found solace from their abuse by thinking God and/or Jesus loves them.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Fanman » August 2nd, 2012, 4:42 pm

Xris,

I'm going to re-iterate what I said in my previous post. I see no harm in parents teaching their children their beliefs, unless those beliefs are extremist.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 3rd, 2012, 4:40 am

Misty wrote:Xris,

Your father hitting you for telling the truth was not a religious based decision but one of an adult exercising unfair power over a child. Your father was a brute with little self esteem. Your mother did not protect you from him.

Children often have one experience that in their minds 'happened all the time', especially when the experience was a painful one. Memories are often not reliable. While your memories are yours alone, other children have found solace from their abuse by thinking God and/or Jesus loves them.
My father was a product of his time, he was suffering from serving nearly three years in a war that turned him from a loving husband and father into a depressed individual. Yes I did believe in Jesus but I have modified my beliefs through years of consideration.

-- Updated Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:41 am to add the following --
Fanman wrote:Xris,

I'm going to re-iterate what I said in my previous post. I see no harm in parents teaching their children their beliefs, unless those beliefs are extremist.
I repeat my post. Who is going to decide what is extreme or abusive?

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Fanman » August 3rd, 2012, 5:28 am

Xris,
Xris wrote: I repeat my post. Who is going to decide what is extreme or abusive?
What point or points of your post are you repeating? And what point are you attempting to illustrate by asking this question? As far as I am aware, it is their parents and the society they grow up in that teach children what is extremist and what is abusive.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty » August 3rd, 2012, 5:31 am

Xris wrote:
My father was a product of his time, he was suffering from serving nearly three years in a war that turned him from a loving husband and father into a depressed individual. Yes I did believe in Jesus but I have modified my beliefs through years of consideration.


Xris, ALL people are products of their time. Your belief in Jesus and reconsideration - that is exactly what all people have the right to - - people should have the right of belief or disbelief through their own search and not based on your experiences and conclusions. There is just as much credence in one who believes in God and their experience as the experience of those who decide not to believe. In all the years I have watched the news with people who have suffered natural disasters or evil at the hand of other people, I have never heard one person say it was God's fault but thanked God for their delivery. In your personal story from your own words, it was your parents who abused you not Jesus or the belief in Jesus.

Tell me, why is it that when people curse, it is the name of God or Jesus that people use and not names from other belief systems?

I addressed you in post 406 as well.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 3rd, 2012, 7:22 am

Misty wrote: My father was a product of his time, he was suffering from serving nearly three years in a war that turned him from a loving husband and father into a depressed individual. Yes I did believe in Jesus but I have modified my beliefs through years of consideration.
My parents did not abuse me they were misguided. I never blamed god, how could I when I do not believe in him. How can you blame god if you do believe in him? It would extinguish all you ever believed in. If the individual finds solace in their belief, I will not object. I believe in the message of jesus but not in Christ. The certainty of god, taught to me at an early age caused me much soul searching till I overcome that indoctrination.

I have no idea why jesus Christ or god is used historically as an expletive.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Maldon007 » August 3rd, 2012, 3:36 pm

Xris wrote: I have no idea why jesus Christ or god is used historically as an expletive.
Now that is an interesting question!

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty » August 3rd, 2012, 3:54 pm

Misty wrote:
Tell me, why is it that when people curse, it is the name of God or Jesus that people use and not names from other belief systems?

Do you have an answer?
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Maldon007 » August 3rd, 2012, 7:43 pm

I assume, in other belief systems people may use their respective deidies in curses... But it's only a guess. I tried to think of what I mean, exactly, when I do it... I think it's mostly an exclamation that is habitual, having learned it from others.. But maybe it originated in sort of asking for help? Like- "Ouch!!! I cut myself, jesus help me!" Or an actual curse- "Jesus curse that table I stubbed my toe on!!" "God damn this broken transmission!!!"

Misty, why do you think people of other religions do not use their gods, in curses?

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bermudj » August 4th, 2012, 2:56 am

Misty wrote:...Today on TV news there was an interview with a Pakistan man who practiced honor killing of his own daughter, gave an example of the worth of females: If you have a plate and drop it, it breaks, it is no good anymore, that is the same with females who are raped. Honor is worth more than their child or any female, their fault or not.(not that that would qualify punishment either way) He was asked if he thinks about his daughter, he said, not at all. They believe all infidels to their religion deserve death. ...
What a terrible story.

-- Updated August 4th, 2012, 10:42 am to add the following --
Xris wrote: I have no idea how it is taught now but my religous education consisted of writing freehand, page after page of christian scriptures. Not one mention of alternative faiths or the questioning of dogma.
Your reply made me think of Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall; "...we don't need no education, we don't need no thought control...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U

-- Updated August 4th, 2012, 10:45 am to add the following --
Bermudj wrote: What a terrible story.

-- Updated August 4th, 2012, 10:42 am to add the following --


Your reply made me think of Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall; "...we don't need no education, we don't need no thought control...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U
This video is very good.
Do whatever you do, do what a good man would do, and what is a good man?, I do not know, but at every point, every turn, do what a good man would do.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Granth » August 4th, 2012, 5:56 am

Misty wrote:
Tell me, why is it that when people curse, it is the name of God or Jesus that people use and not names from other belief systems?

.


Because if a god created everything then he is also to blame when things are crappy?
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Belinda » August 4th, 2012, 6:55 am

I watched the television documentary about an Amish family in which the children were clearly not abused and yet they were also indoctrinated in Christian beliefs as well as Amish rituals and customs. One seldom sees such a happy family. I had to think again about religion being child abuse. I think now that religious indoctrination is not child abuse as long as the society in which the particular religious culture in embedded is compliant with the larger society, and does not work to exclude the larger society. The Amish culture lives happily within and alongside the wider American culture, and the wider American culture likewise fits with the civilised world.

If the indoctrinated Amish children were being taught a divisive religious doctrine the case would be different because the children would be put at the disadvantage of alienation towards outsiders. This does not seems to be the case because the children as well as the parents were welcoming and friendly to the television cameras. The difficulty for Amish children may be that if at some time they have to join the wider society in which they will be expected to be educated people they will have to unlearn Biblical literalism.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty » August 4th, 2012, 8:08 am

Maldon007 wrote:I assume, in other belief systems people may use their respective deidies in curses... But it's only a guess. I tried to think of what I mean, exactly, when I do it... I think it's mostly an exclamation that is habitual, having learned it from others.. But maybe it originated in sort of asking for help? Like- "Ouch!!! I cut myself, jesus help me!" Or an actual curse- "Jesus curse that table I stubbed my toe on!!" "God damn this broken transmission!!!"

Misty, why do you think people of other religions do not use their gods, in curses?
That is a good question and the other side of the coin. I wanted an answer that is documented or at least has been researched. But, in answer to your question my GUESS would be it is because their gods did not create the universe nor them, therefore their gods are without power.

-- Updated Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:10 am to add the following --
Xris wrote: My parents did not abuse me they were misguided. I never blamed god, how could I when I do not believe in him. How can you blame god if you do believe in him? It would extinguish all you ever believed in. If the individual finds solace in their belief, I will not object. I believe in the message of jesus but not in Christ. The certainty of god, taught to me at an early age caused me much soul searching till I overcome that indoctrination.

Your father hit you - that is abuse. You excuse his abuse with the word misguided but do not give that same excuse or reason to religion.

-- Updated Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:17 am to add the following --
Belinda wrote:I watched the television documentary about an Amish family in which the children were clearly not abused and yet they were also indoctrinated in Christian beliefs as well as Amish rituals and customs. One seldom sees such a happy family. I had to think again about religion being child abuse. I think now that religious indoctrination is not child abuse as long as the society in which the particular religious culture in embedded is compliant with the larger society, and does not work to exclude the larger society. The Amish culture lives happily within and alongside the wider American culture, and the wider American culture likewise fits with the civilised world.

If the indoctrinated Amish children were being taught a divisive religious doctrine the case would be different because the children would be put at the disadvantage of alienation towards outsiders. This does not seems to be the case because the children as well as the parents were welcoming and friendly to the television cameras. The difficulty for Amish children may be that if at some time they have to join the wider society in which they will be expected to be educated people they will have to unlearn Biblical literalism.
Like all organizations and religions there are many sects to any belief system. The documentary you saw was unique. There is also a TV program about how the Amish teenager is allowed to leave home to live in the "world" for a time, then they have to decide whether they will come back home and embrace that life or leave home for the "world's" ways. If they choose the world they are not allowed to come home again nor have anything to do with their families for the rest of their lives. Tough love?

-- Updated Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:31 am to add the following --
Granth wrote:

Because if a god created everything then he is also to blame when things are crappy?
Possibly. More likely though it is ones way to feel power. Calling on creator God to damn something actually gives credence that God IS. Calling out Jesus Christ!, Oh my God, etc., affirms who they are. It is also a way for the one using that way of talking to try to bring power to oneself, by aligning oneself with God.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.

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