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Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Xris
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 4th, 2012, 10:00 am

Belinda wrote:I watched the television documentary about an Amish family in which the children were clearly not abused and yet they were also indoctrinated in Christian beliefs as well as Amish rituals and customs. One seldom sees such a happy family. I had to think again about religion being child abuse. I think now that religious indoctrination is not child abuse as long as the society in which the particular religious culture in embedded is compliant with the larger society, and does not work to exclude the larger society. The Amish culture lives happily within and alongside the wider American culture, and the wider American culture likewise fits with the civilised world.

If the indoctrinated Amish children were being taught a divisive religious doctrine the case would be different because the children would be put at the disadvantage of alienation towards outsiders. This does not seems to be the case because the children as well as the parents were welcoming and friendly to the television cameras. The difficulty for Amish children may be that if at some time they have to join the wider society in which they will be expected to be educated people they will have to unlearn Biblical literalism.
It's still abuse to me Belinda. They restrict the freedom other children enjoy, exclude any who do not abide by the dogmatic belief system. We only see true freedom to chose when a balanced education is allowed. They dare not stand against what they have been taught for fear of rejection.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Belinda » August 4th, 2012, 3:20 pm

Misty wrote in response to my favourable impression on Amish:
Like all organizations and religions there are many sects to any belief system. The documentary you saw was unique. There is also a TV program about how the Amish teenager is allowed to leave home to live in the "world" for a time, then they have to decide whether they will come back home and embrace that life or leave home for the "world's" ways. If they choose the world they are not allowed to come home again nor have anything to do with their families for the rest of their lives. Tough love?
Tough love, no! Divisive! I did not know this . It seems then that Amish culture makes insufficient allowance for their children's freedom to choose when they are grown up. Nevertheles, as long as the Amish person is happy to remain indoctrinated and the Amish culture stays within the law of the land, and Amish society is also self sufficient enough to survive in its isolation, the indoctrinated Amish child or adult is not likely to be unhappy because of a lack of any of the essentials of a thoroughly satisfactory life. After all , the alternative is not completely desirable to say the least.

By contrast with the Amish. even including the divisiveness that Misty describes, the Pakistan culture of family honour which, if not purely doctrinal, has religious overtones is not only illegal but is also immoral according to civilised standards of morality. This is very low grade within the scale of right and wrong pertaining to indoctrinated beliefs, whereas the Amish indoctrinated belief is okay, maybe better.


I do hold out for education not indoctrination, but I assume that we are talking about education in the context of national education within the wider society, not isolated and self sufficient sects. I only mentioned the Amish because not every isolated and self sufficient sect holds immoral doctrines.They don't seems to proselytise.

However it is wrong to indoctrinate a child (or adult) with ideas that are incompatible with the wider world , when the person is going to have to live in the wider world.

The Amish are not a problem in the US, I guess for refusing to integrate; they don't break any laws and are good citizens.
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Xris
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 4th, 2012, 3:52 pm

The Amish are encountering profound problems. Land in America has suddenly become a scarcity and as families grow they have to change their agricultural heritage. How do they maintain a dogma that relies on certain basic concepts? It is in crisis and the only way is to look beyond their confines and they are ill prepared. Indoctrination has limited their ability to adjust and adapt.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty » August 5th, 2012, 5:18 am

Belinda wrote:Misty wrote in response to my favourable impression on Amish:

By contrast with the Amish. even including the divisiveness that Misty describes, the Pakistan culture of family honour which, if not purely doctrinal, has religious overtones is not only illegal but is also immoral according to civilised standards of morality. This is very low grade within the scale of right and wrong pertaining to indoctrinated beliefs, whereas the Amish indoctrinated belief is okay, maybe better.

Honor killing in Pakistan is not illegal. There are women trying to change their laws. The TV news report I saw a few days ago showed the government saying they will not change the laws about honor killings. Women are not important, they are property sanctioned by the religion of that country. Beyond immoral. Insane.

The Amish people are not stupid even though they don't embrace much education. I am sure there is a hierarchy within the community that has money. They do sell products of their making to the public. Their indoctrination is religious and they believe anyone not of their belief/lifestyle will go to hell. Their community protects them from the outside world and one who deviates (after trial period for teens) will be excommunicated. I went to Pennsylvania to see their world and they had the most beautiful crops, lush and green, the men working barefoot. In the town close by the women were selling their wares. While portraying a gentle lifestyle they are human and encounter human problems of abuse, greed etc., birth defects, as does the general populations, generally kept quiet.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bermudj » August 5th, 2012, 6:21 am

Misty wrote:...While portraying a gentle lifestyle they are human and encounter human problems of abuse, greed etc., birth defects, as does the general populations, generally kept quiet.
Agree. Human beings are human beings and these problems will always surface. What is important is how these problems are addressed, rather than those who argue that because we are such and such a group we are privileged, or chosen by God in some way or another and exempt from all of these human problems.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Fanman » August 5th, 2012, 9:24 am

Xris,
Xris wrote:The Amish are encountering profound problems. Land in America has suddenly become a scarcity and as families grow they have to change their agricultural heritage. How do they maintain a dogma that relies on certain basic concepts? It is in crisis and the only way is to look beyond their confines and they are ill prepared. Indoctrination has limited their ability to adjust and adapt.
I am curious, where did you get this information from? The documentary that I watched about the Armish community never mentioned any of the problems that you have cited. In what ways has indoctrination "limited their ability to adjust and adapt." Do you have any examples?
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty » August 5th, 2012, 10:30 am

Bermudj wrote: Agree. Human beings are human beings and these problems will always surface. What is important is how these problems are addressed, rather than those who argue that because we are such and such a group we are privileged, or chosen by God in some way or another and exempt from all of these human problems.

Agree. The Amish also take care of themselves and do not look to the government for help. (this does not say there have not been occasions when some called Amish have received help - I don't know - but the general life style of the Amish would not seek government help.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 5th, 2012, 11:45 am

Fanman wrote:Xris,



I am curious, where did you get this information from? The documentary that I watched about the Armish community never mentioned any of the problems that you have cited. In what ways has indoctrination "limited their ability to adjust and adapt." Do you have any examples?
I wonder if you doubt my posts Fanman. You constantly require proof. In the past when land was readily available the Amish young would set up new communities. Now that choice has been removed their life has become complicated and their blinkered life style is prohibiting them finding alternatives. I will endeavour to give you a link but in future could you try searching yourself. Thanks xris.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton » August 5th, 2012, 12:34 pm

To Xris:

Hey, no disrespect but you have got to provide those links you said you were going to or at least some exact source so it can be googled. Even if you don't provide every piece evidence for all of your assumptions. If you let the opposing arguer to look up your evidence we won't get to hear how you interpreted it.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Belinda » August 5th, 2012, 12:59 pm

Fanman wrote:Xris,



I am curious, where did you get this information from? The documentary that I watched about the Armish community never mentioned any of the problems that you have cited. In what ways has indoctrination "limited their ability to adjust and adapt." Do you have any examples?

Xris is right that the economic base of any society is what determines the success or failure of the religious doctrine . If Xris is correct in his information it follows that the Amish will be in trouble due to the inertia of maladaptive indoctrination. By 'maladaptive' in this instance I mean that medieval beliefs i.e. Biblical literalism , clash with modern science, upon which any modern economy is based. It is not necessary for Xris to produce evidence of whether or not the Amish will have to change their agricultural heritage to understand this basic economic principle that means of subsistence is the material cause of specific religious beliefs.
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton » August 5th, 2012, 1:10 pm

I can't address all your points at once but I don't think it is true that a modern economy (capitalism for example) is based on the empiric method. John Adams (founder guy) never gives solid evidence that capitalism works he just gave good emotional reasons why. Like people are competitive and competition is good.

So saying that clashing with modern economic ideas equals clashing with science is not true.

More specifically the founder of capitalism never ran tests to see if capitalism would or does work and this shows that modern economies are based off of intuition or feeling rather than empiric reasoning. If you agree with me and would like to rephrase your argument that is fine.
Belinda wrote:

Xris is right that the economic base of any society is what determines the success or failure of the religious doctrine . If Xris is correct in his information it follows that the Amish will be in trouble due to the inertia of maladaptive indoctrination. By 'maladaptive' in this instance I mean that medieval beliefs i.e. Biblical literalism , clash with modern science, upon which any modern economy is based. It is not necessary for Xris to produce evidence of whether or not the Amish will have to change their agricultural heritage to understand this basic economic principle that means of subsistence is the material cause of specific religious beliefs.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Belinda » August 5th, 2012, 1:21 pm

I said that any modern economy is based upon science. Science, as contrasted with pre-scientific methods of production. Whether the political superstructure is capitalism or communism, the society will fail to produce adequately if modern science is not adhered to. Even the Amish in their determinedly agricultural way need to know how to cure diseases and injuries in the livestock, and how to fertilise their land in a sustainable way. These skills are enhanced by or in many cases depend upon scientific knowledge. I would be very surprised if the Amish could sell enough oproduce unless their means of production is sufficiently scientifically correct
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Bertram_Colton
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton » August 5th, 2012, 1:33 pm

So if the Amish do use empiric methods (ex. to build good houses) and society uses empiric methods (ex. to create a efficient system of trade) than the Amish are not clashing with science. But rather something else instead.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Jjpregler » August 5th, 2012, 1:51 pm

I don't see the Amish doing bad at all. There are a couple Amish Markets near me run by Amish who travel from Lancaster every Thursday, Friday and Saturday and both of them are completely packed when they are opened. They serve quality food and goods with great service that many are willing to spend a little more for their products. It doesn't seem as if they are hurting from the looks of their business.

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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton » August 5th, 2012, 1:58 pm

Sure, and I think they are actually better businessmen (or is that businesspersons) than the average american citizen. I mean, if we could get every american citizen to at least try to start a business our economic troubles might even end. Thats a bit of an exaggeration I know)

-- Updated August 5th, 2012, 11:59 am to add the following --

I can't remember what the main question was anymore.

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