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Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Xris
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 5th, 2012, 2:34 pm

Bertram_Colton wrote:To Xris:

Hey, no disrespect but you have got to provide those links you said you were going to or at least some exact source so it can be googled. Even if you don't provide every piece evidence for all of your assumptions. If you let the opposing arguer to look up your evidence we won't get to hear how you interpreted it.
It was not a link but a BBC programme that I can not find. http://www.exploring-amish-country.com/ ... amily.html

This article is along the same lines. I was wondering would you change your opinion if I found the programme?

There are problems in paradise. Incest,rape, meths abuse, genetic malfunctions. Disagreement with neighbouring Amish. My intentions are not to belittle the Amish but to point out nothing is as perfect as we might believe.

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Bertram_Colton
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton » August 5th, 2012, 2:38 pm

Those are problems, but I wonder if these problems are greater than any other society's?

I will do some research while this continues.

-- Updated August 5th, 2012, 12:43 pm to add the following --

okay I only did a little research and it sounds like the Amish communities, (sometimes but not always with consent), are slowly being phased into mainstream society. I can't post a link but the name of the website is religioustolerance. However even though Amish are become more mainstream, and more liberal, they are still remaining very much a religious organization (of course). I would think such changes are in response to the problems you mentioned.

This is all well and good but we should try to see if we can connect back to the main question(s) soon.

-- Updated August 5th, 2012, 12:46 pm to add the following --

Sorry I just wanted to clarify why I can't post a link.

I'm new and the system won't let me. :?

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Fanman
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Fanman » August 5th, 2012, 4:56 pm

Belinda,

The reason that I ask Xris to provide some evidence and perhaps some examples, is because he is making extremely bold, factual claims. And no offence to him, but I think that when making bold, factual claims, they should be supported by some evidence, or at least some source of factuality. Otherwise, it appears as though Xris is only posting his own opinion; which I am under no obligation to agree with or even believe. It is natural for me at least, to try and support my claims with some kind of evidence. Therefore, I am inclined to think that others should do the same.

Now, I don't know much about the Armish, but from what I do know of their way of life, they appear to be an intelligent people, who live a lifestyle that is different from the western (or modern) way of life. They do not strike me as being maladaptive; very religious and agricultural yes, but I don't think that this implies maladaptivity on their part. I think that they are well aware of the modern world around them, but they choose not to be a part of it. If it one day becomes necessary for them to integrate into modern society, I think that they would be able to adapt, only they would retain their traditions.

I would however say, that the Armish are well adapted to the economic climate; if they weren't, how would they have survived for so long?
Once a theist, now agnostic.

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Rederic
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Rederic » August 5th, 2012, 6:22 pm

And no offence to him, but I think that when making bold, factual claims, they should be supported by some evidence
Why doesn't this apply to a theists claim that God created the heavens, the earth & mankind?
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
Archibald Macleish.

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Bertram_Colton
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bertram_Colton » August 5th, 2012, 6:32 pm

It does apply to theists, for sure, but that is not the topic right now, (though I am not sure what is).

-- Updated August 5th, 2012, 4:34 pm to add the following --

You must remember that not all theists are philosophers. Some are though, so you have a point of course. :)

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Fanman
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Fanman » August 6th, 2012, 4:55 am

Rederic,
Rederic wrote:
Why doesn't this apply to a theists claim that God created the heavens, the earth & mankind?
A theist's, or at least my evidence of God's existence is the bible, existence itself (the universe and everything in it) and my personal experiences. These examples of 'evidence' will not be accepted as valid by atheists; perhaps only by other theists. As far as I am aware, it is not possible for a theist to provide the type of evidence that would convince an atheist that God exists. You have to bear in mind that belief in God is largely based upon faith, (which doesn't require the type of evidence you're asking for). Therefore, in asking a theist to provide evidence of God's existence, and that he created the heavens, the earth & mankind, you are asking for the impossible.
Once a theist, now agnostic.

Xris
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 6th, 2012, 5:16 am

Fanman wrote:Rederic,



A theist's, or at least my evidence of God's existence is the bible, existence itself (the universe and everything in it) and my personal experiences. These examples of 'evidence' will not be accepted as valid by atheists; perhaps only by other theists. As far as I am aware, it is not possible for a theist to provide the type of evidence that would convince an atheist that God exists. You have to bear in mind that belief in God is largely based upon faith, (which doesn't require the type of evidence you're asking for). Therefore, in asking a theist to provide evidence of God's existence, and that he created the heavens, the earth & mankind, you are asking for the impossible.
Well I have produced evidence that not all Amish are living in paradise now you prove god exists. A good link might help.

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Fanman
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Fanman » August 6th, 2012, 5:45 am

Xris wrote: Well I have produced evidence that not all Amish are living in paradise now you prove god exists. A good link might help.
Xris,

I don't recall anyone asserting that the Armish were living in "paradise," I certainly did not. Therefore, you have disproven your own assertion. I think that for someone to believe in God, a degree of faith is required. You have no faith, therefore I think that no matter what evidence or links I provided to try and convince you that God exists, you would attempt to refute them.

We have argued on many occasions about the existence of God, and I have provided what I believe is evidence of his existence; only for you to rubbish my claims. Thus, I see no point in starting the same circular arguement with you.
Once a theist, now agnostic.

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Maldon007
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Maldon007 » August 6th, 2012, 6:50 am

Xris wrote: Well I have produced evidence that not all Amish are living in paradise now you prove god exists. A good link might help.
Really, Xris? This was a pretty cool thread till you started jacking it all up with this crap.

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Bermudj
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Bermudj » August 6th, 2012, 7:02 am

Xris wrote:Well I have produced evidence that not all Amish are living in paradise now you prove god exists. A good link might help.
Well actually for 49 years I used to live in paradise. The reason being I was naive. My capacity to discriminate among people was not there, so nearly any body and everybody was a friend of mine. I was extremely at peace with myself, my peace was rudely shattered. I have now been working at being at peace with myself, this time well aware of the nastiness of humans. Maybe when I can reach that state again I will be able to prove that God exists.
Do whatever you do, do what a good man would do, and what is a good man?, I do not know, but at every point, every turn, do what a good man would do.

Jesús Antonio Bermúdez-Silva

Xris
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 6th, 2012, 7:41 am

I love it, I am asked to prove my claims by referencing link after link but a simple consideration that the most commonly held claim that god exists can be accepted as a fact without question and my request can be so easily dismissed. Fanman I do not want your personal experiences to be dragged up again and again, I agree with you here. You questioned my honesty in reference to the Amish and now you act like some wounded crusader. God is a myth invented by our ancient ancestors and I object to his existence being taught to young minds. It is an abuse of privilege and parenthood.

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Fanman
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Fanman » August 6th, 2012, 8:13 am

Xris,
Xris wrote: God is a myth invented by our ancient ancestors and I object to his existence being taught to young minds. It is an abuse of privilege and parenthood.


If this is what you believe, then why are you asking me to prove the existence of God?
Once a theist, now agnostic.

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Misty
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Misty » August 6th, 2012, 8:24 am

Belinda wrote:

Xris is right that the economic base of any society is what determines the success or failure of the religious doctrine . If Xris is correct in his information it follows that the Amish will be in trouble due to the inertia of maladaptive indoctrination. By 'maladaptive' in this instance I mean that medieval beliefs i.e. Biblical literalism , clash with modern science, upon which any modern economy is based. It is not necessary for Xris to produce evidence of whether or not the Amish will have to change their agricultural heritage to understand this basic economic principle that means of subsistence is the material cause of specific religious beliefs.
False. If your's/Xris's statement was correct Christianity would not have flourished.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

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Rederic
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Rederic » August 6th, 2012, 8:43 am

False. If your's/Xris's statement was correct Christianity would not have flourished.
Yes it would. Religions keep changing their definitions to counter advances in science & philosophy. It's not that long ago that the bible was described by Christians as word for word, the literal truth. Now you get senior churchmen saying that a lot of it is a metaphor. This will keep on happening. No matter what discoveries are made by science, religions will change their reasoning, because a belief in a supernatural entity is a need that's within some people.
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
Archibald Macleish.

Xris
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Re: Can Religion be considered to be child abuse?

Post by Xris » August 6th, 2012, 9:50 am

Fanman wrote:Xris,




If this is what you believe, then why are you asking me to prove the existence of God?
You have constantly asked me to provide links to my claims and now it is your turn. Give me a link that proves conclusively that your claims are true. Prove to me that your god exists?

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