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Religion vs. Philosophy

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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dparrott
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by dparrott » February 6th, 2012, 11:14 pm

Very well put I agree.

Youngfool
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Youngfool » February 7th, 2012, 1:50 am

Hello all; and especially my good friend "dparrot";

I was struck responseless for some time before I could even begin to say how surprised I was by your response. All I can really think of to say is, "thank you" for the validation.

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dparrott
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by dparrott » February 7th, 2012, 3:14 pm

Your welcome, I enjoy any discusion that helps me look further into my own belief's.

Dmcauliffe
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Dmcauliffe » February 15th, 2012, 3:13 pm

I think religion in general is a system that claims to have answers, and philosophy is the pursuit of questions. Religion does not work well for answering questions, because it relies too much on superstition and supernatural explanations for things. Because of this, religion cannot answer philosophical questions. Some people say religion is an early form of philosophy, but I disagree with that; I see the two more like siblings. They are opposites, in a way. One is always asking questions and the other is always asserting that it knows the answers.

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dparrott
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by dparrott » February 15th, 2012, 4:50 pm

Dmcauliffe, What can answer philosophical questions? Even reason and logic are opinion's held by each individual. I can think an argument is logical and another might view it as illogical. The same goes for religion some might see it as logical while others view it as illogical. For me personally philosophy has helped strengthen my faith in God by questioning religion. Who killed Jesus? The Jewish pharacies. Why? Becuase of his open questioning and disregard for thier religion. Who created christianity? Paul not Jesus. What I get from this is that Jesus hated religion and wanted people to be individual's and have their own personal belief's based on their personal investigation of the world. Instead of being followers of religion. By practicing philosophy I came to this conclusion. I decided to question and I got my own answer. So back to what can answer philosophical questions? Only the individual through his own pursuit/investigation of the world he lives in. Philosophy helped me create my own personal faith. So are they really VS. eachother? or opposites? In my personal experience they are not.

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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Wooden shoe » February 15th, 2012, 5:03 pm

Hi dparrot.

I think you are mixing the words theology and philosophy.
You developed a theology based on your interpretation of the new testament.
You would have to start with some beliefs, which in philosophy would be challenged, and found not to stand up to scrutiny.

Regards, John.
We experience today through the lens of all our yesterdays

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dparrott
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by dparrott » February 15th, 2012, 9:57 pm

I see your point wooden shoe, but philosophy did help me find my own theology. Of course some of my belief's can be scrutinized and I will listen and this will just help me better refine my belief's.

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Re:

Post by Alldwarf » March 17th, 2013, 2:10 pm

kyle22 wrote:Philosophy is based on rational investigation, but religion is based on faith. That is the main difference, in my opinion.

I would agree. The approaches are entirely different. Religions accept as axioms the statements within scriptural writings as the basis for understanding the world. Speculative reason attempts to build up within its own processes the axioms of being. The belief in a being external to its creation and setting up laws is counter to idea of freedom. Philosophy, on the other hand, assumes this freedom of thought and inquiry to be prerequisites.

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Rederic
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Rederic » March 17th, 2013, 5:31 pm

Who killed Jesus? The Jewish pharacies.
No. The Romans killed Jesus.
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
Archibald Macleish.

Belinda
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Belinda » March 18th, 2013, 3:59 am

Rederic wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


No. The Romans killed Jesus.
Why do ministers of Christian sects not educate, or at least inform, their flocks about the basics of history regarding Roman imperialism ?

Sometims it seems as if Christianity is preached as if it were born in a make-believe land instead of in history.
Socialist

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Ether_ore
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Ether_ore » March 23rd, 2013, 10:32 pm

A wise man once wrote: If theology is theory, then religion is practice.

I think this is a good indication of the difference between the Religion and Philosophy. Theology can be viewed as a specialized form of philosophy that deals specificly with the nature of God and our relationship to Him. Theology uses prophetic revelations that are in agreement as the basis for inquiry. However, like any branch of philosophy, the ultimate purpose of the inquiry is (I assume) to put forth reasons (and therefore guidance) for the proper behavior of men. The love of wisdom should (I think) lead us to religiously following a wholesome relationship with our fellow beings.

As I have studied philosophy, one observation seems to stand out. Philosophy as mush as Theology is an ongoing set of arguments that never seems to have a resolution. I often despair that for all the technological advances humanity has made, there is and seems never will be a comperable advancement in our ability to adopt the same set of rules and get along. No one group religiously adheres to the same set of guidlines as another group. There are socialist programs afoot that will attempt to force everyone into the same belief systems, but like all dictatorships, it will fail. I had one philosophy professor tell me that socialism is not a political system based on agreed upon philosophical arguments. He said it is rather, an economic system that in no way challenges the Constitution philosophically. I couldn't help but wonder what planet he was from.

The use of force to achieve its ends (and it cannot achieve them any other way) is most certainly political. Socialism necessarily evolves into a dictatorship. That sounds like a political concern to me. Those who want to practice socialism by forcefully taking from others are of a different religion than I.

But I digress.

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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Wooden shoe » March 23rd, 2013, 11:34 pm

Either_or, you wrote: The use of force to achieve its ends (and it cannot achieve them any other way) is most certainly political. Socialism necessarily evolves into a dictatorship. That sounds like a political concern to me.

What is your understanding of socialism? There are a number of very succesful socialistic governments in Europe without a dictator.

Regards, John.
We experience today through the lens of all our yesterdays

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Ether_ore
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Ether_ore » March 24th, 2013, 12:13 am

Yes, I understand that european socialism is held up as a working example. I do not, however, agree that they are "succesful" considering the economic upheavals that are in progress. As I see it, one of two things will happen. Either the people will see that socialism doesn't work and try something else, or what happend in post WW1 Germany will repeat itself. Communism or National Socialism (NAZIs) will succeed in taking control because the people will want some one individual who they feel can fix it. My fear is that things are so bad that it has gone past the point where anything other than a dictatorship will exists.

To answer your question as to what I know about socialism:

Socialism defined:

“A political and economic theory of social organization based on collective or governmental ownership and democratic management of the essential means for the production and distribution of goods; also, a policy or practice based on this theory.” (Webster’s New International Dictionary, 2nd ed. unabridged, 1951.) ”

George Bernard Shaw, the noted Fabian Socialist, said that: “Socialism, reduced to its simplest legal and practical expression, means the complete discarding of the institution of private property by transforming it into public property and the division of the resultant income equally and indiscriminately among the entire population.” (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 ed., Vol. 20, p. 895.) ”

George Douglas Howard Cole, M.A. noted author and university reader in economics at Oxford, who treats socialism for the Encyclopedia Britannica, says that because of the shifting sense in which the word has been used, “a short and comprehensive definition is impossible. We can only say,” he concludes, “that Socialism is essentially a doctrine and a movement aiming at the collective organization of the community in the interest of the mass of the people by means of the common ownership and collective control of the means of production and exchange.” (Ibid., p. 888.)

Socialism arose “out of the economic division in society.” During the nineteenth century its growth was accelerated as a protest against “the appalling conditions prevailing in the workshops and factories and the unchristian spirit of the spreading industrial system.”

Communism, starting point The “Communist Manifesto” drafted by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels for the Communist League in 1848 is generally regarded as the starting point of modern socialism. (Ibid., p. 890.) The distinction between socialism, as represented by the various Socialist and Labour parties of Europe and the New World, and Communism, as represented by the Russians, is one of tactics and strategy rather than of objective.

Communism is indeed only socialism pursued by revolutionary means and making its revolutionary method a canon of faith. Communists like other socialists, (1) believe in the collective control and ownership of the vital means of production and (2) seek to achieve through state action the coordinated control of the economic forces of society. They (the Communists) differ from other socialists in believing that this control can be secured, and its use in the interests of the workers ensured, only by revolutionary action leading to the dictatorship of the proletariat and the creation of a new proletarian state as the instrument of change. (Ibid.)

German Socialism A major rift between so-called orthodox socialism and communist socialism occurred in 1875 when the German Social Democratic party set forth its objective of winning power by taking over control of the bourgeois state, rather than by overthrowing it. In effect, the German Social Democratic party became a parliamentary party, aiming at the assumption of political power by constitutional means.

Fabian Society In the 1880′s a small group of intellectuals set up in England the Fabian Society, which has had a major influence on the development of modern orthodox socialism. Fabianism stands “for the evolutionary conception of socialism . . . endeavoring by progressive reforms and the nationalization of industries, to turn the existing state into a ‘welfare state.’” Somewhat on the order of the German Social Democrats Fabians aim “at permeating the existing parties with socialistic ideas [rather] than at creating a definitely socialistic party.” They appeal “to the electorate not as revolutionaries but as constitutional reformers seeking a peaceful transformation of the system.” (Ibid.)

Forms and policies of socialism The differences in forms and policies of socialism occur principally in the manner in which they seek to implement their theories. They all advocate:

(1) That private ownership of the vital means of production be abolished and that all such property “pass under some form of coordinated public control.” (public control is a euphemism for control by elitists which envariably is reduced to a dictatorship.)

(2) That the power of the state be used to achieve their aims. (insert here the use of "Force")

(3) “That with a change in the control of industry will go a change in the motives which operate in the industrial system. . . .” (read here: some form of forced re-education camps to endoctrinate or the use of state police to eliminate dissidents)

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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Wooden shoe » March 24th, 2013, 2:01 am

Hi Either_ore.

Thank you for your reply. I think that there is a bit of a misconception regarding the forms of government of Europe,In N. America. At this time I am not aware of any really socialist state in Europe, In my opinion all of them are a blend of capitalism and socialism and yes some of them are in big financial difficulty, but by no means all of them. Of course the USA also is having its financial problems. I see no dictators on the horizon for western Europe but perhaps some of the former Soviet will turn to one, a few have dictators presently. Even my country Canada has more social programs than the USA, like government run healthcare and a few provinces have automobile insurance.

Regards, John.
We experience today through the lens of all our yesterdays

Robin
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Robin » March 27th, 2013, 3:47 pm

Who killed Jesus - it came from varying forces - religious leaders who were unbendable in their orthodoxy and also jealous of the attention an upstart was getting, a volatile time where various Jewish leaders were rising up and claiming to liberate Israel from her captors and this caused the Romans to be paranoid about these movements and want to squash them, people who were captive and oppressed and could not see beyond this situation and were dissapointed at Jesus' not overthrowing Roman rule and promising an entirely different kingdom instead..

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