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Religion vs. Philosophy

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Wooden shoe
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Wooden shoe » March 27th, 2013, 4:17 pm

Robin.

The Romans killed Jesus according to the bible. There were others who wanted him dead, but wanting and doing are different things.

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Robin
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Robin » March 28th, 2013, 12:16 pm

Hi Wooden Shoe, of course the Romans did the actual deed and you could argue that Jesus triumphal entry to Jerusalem was a sign to the Romans that Jesus Kingdom was about to take place (which could have been interpreted as a sign that he would lead the Jews to overthrow Roman occupation), but according to the Bible, Pilate was hesitant to put Jesus to death, it was the Pharisees and Jesus' own people who demanded his death. As ruling authorities over the Jews, Rome had to acquiesce to the people's demand.

-- Updated March 28th, 2013, 12:18 pm to add the following --

Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.” 5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”

6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

Belinda
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Belinda » March 29th, 2013, 3:59 am

The thing is. Robin, which is more likely? That the Roman authorities at a later time inserted the Nice Pontius Pilate story.and that the Roman occupation of the time was actually as brutal as the Romans were elsewhere when stroppy natives had to be controlled.

Or that the Romans were nice imperialists at least in Palestine?
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Robin
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Robin » April 2nd, 2013, 1:32 pm

Hi Belinda,

I think your thinking makes sense from a historical perspective (based on the brutal things the Roman empire did), however my reply to Wooden Shoe was the way it is because I was told to go to the Bible and merely quoted what was written.

But I definitely see how a teacher like Jesus could definitely cause the then Jewish religious establishment to want to silence him, the Jewish people had seen many movements in their past that were Messianic claiming to restore Jewish nationhood and cleanse the temple. Jesus did something very different that basically overthrows the Temple and current religious order. The messianic kingdom does not consist of an earthly power or setting the Jews free from Rome and giving them back their former prestige and autonomy, it was an internal revolution against sin and human condemnation a deeper battle that extends way beyond the Jewish idea that they were the chosen people of God.

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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Belinda » April 3rd, 2013, 12:28 pm

Robin wrote:
Jesus did something very different that basically overthrows the Temple and current religious order. The messianic kingdom does not consist of an earthly power or setting the Jews free from Rome and giving them back their former prestige and autonomy, it was an internal revolution against sin and human condemnation a deeper battle that extends way beyond the Jewish idea that they were the chosen people of God.
This too is history. Isaiah had already said what would happen. Not only the Jewish prophets but also several influential people in different parts of the Globe had joined the "internal revolution against sin and human condemnation a deeper battle that extends way beyond the Jewish idea that they were the chosen people of God."
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Supine
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Supine » April 3rd, 2013, 9:11 pm

The Jewish people (which does not necessarily mean Hebrews--as Hebrews were Jewish and pagan and later Christian) are said to be the Chosen People in part because God choose them to carry the Torah.

Yes, the Roman state put Jesus to death. Yes, Pilate likely found no moral fault in Jesus.

This should not be difficult to understand. The secular nation state of the United States puts people to death. Socialist and Communist nations have done worse. As a comparison, Thomas Merton once pointed out Stalin put more people to death in one day, in one town, than over 300 years of Inquisition had done in the whole of Latin America.

Moses himself is depicted in the Old Testament by Jewish authors (not Romans) as a combination of Pope and Torquemada Inquisitor. Except it took Spain at least 100 years to put 3,000 people to death (with trial) and several hundred years to put 5,000 to death. The American KKK trumped that with a speed and efficiency only a communist could probably beat.

Moses is said to have put 3,000 to death for heresy in one day.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus ... ersion=NIV

19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20 And he took the calf the people had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

21 He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”

22 “Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. 23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’ 24 So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
Bold my emphasis.

Rome was the state power and capital punishment was lawfully hers. During the European and American Inquisitions it worked the same. It was the state that had the power to sentence death.

Old Testament also prescribed burning at the stake as a method of death. So, apparently this occurred once or more among them.

A number of criminal gangs in the Americas like to toss tires around people in their extra-judicial lynchings and set them on fire. Animals. And it's political leftists that usually sympathize with these savages as "socially conscious."

Not that right wingers can't be as savage.

I have little patience with burning at the stake (or with tires) or stoning people to death.

If they are to be put to death let it go under a lawful trial and use lethal injection.

The Romans are not depicted in the New Testament as "kind" people either. They are the one's that scourged Jesus, made him walk with his cross, placed the crown of thorn on him, and mocked him. However, even Early Christians like St. Justin Martyr acknowledged some pagan Romans were actually deeply good people. Justin Martyr described them as "natural Christians." There is no reason to think Pilate was some very bad man. Extra Biblical accounts by a mystics says Pilate's wife became one of the early converts to Christianity.

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Tsoanra
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Tsoanra » April 9th, 2013, 11:49 am

cynicallyinsane wrote:What's the difference between religion and philosophy? Aren't they both the search for fundemental truths?
Nothing which invites thought or reason can bring fundamental truths closer, but only drive them away. Consider the evolution of trees, for example. An untutored Child has trees as it evolved to have trees, while the tutored person has ababdoned the present where trees are evolved, for "truths" about trees that he may see inside his head.

It is like The President we see inside our heads, if the image-engineers have done an excellent job so that there is no threat of finding the crook he really has to be to be trusted with all those secrets. Except with The President in one's head there is the very opposite thing from the Beauty of it that is missing from the deflection.

The fundamental must be where the trees are not enough as they have become through evolution, and must therefore evolve a Little more. That more must be found together with the trees, a thing a private thinker is precluded from as "impossible".

To find the fundamanetal "more" we must find it to be that additional more-than-can-be-thought-about which drives us back to the present!
When philosophies differ we have not found one, but affected to. When there is only the universal philosophy no one will ever again find a moment for the trivial pastime of loving himself. Blogs: http://behavioralandcognitivescience.wordpress.com/

Pelagios
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Re:

Post by Pelagios » April 11th, 2013, 8:04 am

MyshiningOne wrote:If done correctly, they both can go together!
Religion and philosophy can not go together. Religion is the idea that there is no need to question anything, while philosophy is the idea that everything is under question. Religion was used to explain things we couldn't understand, now that we understand much of them, religion is useless.

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Just visiting
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Just visiting » May 10th, 2013, 1:28 pm

Hello everyone I am "Just visiting" and would love to add my 2 cents to this very interesting topic. Pelagios and Myshining, from my view both are valid points. Each side is simply viewing the same scriptural verses from alternate mind sets. A religious person has a theological view. To understand this, one must know the ‘Logic of Thea’. Theology, is based in the Greek 17th Century word ‘Thea’ which means ‘goddess’, female who endowed gold, silver and gems with their brilliance and intrinsic value. Thus is the lure of materialism through religion. This is proven by prayers which are said primarily to improve wealth and health etc. More, more, more, One nation under God.

An Atheist simply does not believe in a god found in a religion.

A philosopher understands the ‘love of Sophia’. When Sophia is investigated one understands that it is wisdom which is sought from inside ourselves. This is demonstrated in meditation which is very different from the logic of Thea. For this reason attempting to discover the philosophy of religion is an effort in futility.

The philosophical side of scriptures can be discovered, but one must go back before ‘Tiberian vowel pointing’ where Moses’ written words became theology.

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Wuliheron
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Wuliheron » May 27th, 2013, 2:43 am

Philosophy is the love of wisdom, while religion is the love of God or the divine. I'd have to say that about sums it up.

Simplecyx
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Simplecyx » May 28th, 2013, 8:42 am

Philosophy searches fundamental truth, religion gives fundamental truth; that is the difference.

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Just visiting
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Just visiting » May 29th, 2013, 3:56 pm

Religion is Philosophy personified, praised, followed, battled over, argued over and it congregates in segregated opposing groups. When you de personify it, you sit peacefully and your binary mind becomes the battle field.

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Chasw
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Chasw » July 3rd, 2013, 7:41 pm

cynicallyinsane wrote:What's the difference between religion and philosophy? Aren't they both the search for fundemental truths?
Good question cynic. Both seek the truth, but philosophy is broader and superior to religion and science. That answer, however, begs another question: What does philosophy have to say about religion - what sort of accounts, claims, paradoxes and solutions, can we expect a robust philosophy of religion to produce? My favorite is a succinct account of the nature of religious belief, describing how and why humans hold religious beliefs. What do you think?
The central question of human existence is not why we are here, but rather why we behave the way we do - http://onhumanaffairs.blogspot.com/

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NeoTheseus
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by NeoTheseus » September 5th, 2013, 9:01 am

Isn't the difference between religion & a metaphysical/philosophical approach the agreed upon acceptance of a diety who is concerned for this world/humanity; for good or for evil?

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Chasw
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Re: Religion vs. Philosophy

Post by Chasw » September 5th, 2013, 1:44 pm

NT: Yes, you have it about right - what distinguishes theistic religions is their acceptance of spiritual beings who are at least willing to help people. But I suggest one's approach to reality is not either religious or metaphysical, the two ways of thinking are not exclusive of one another. Instead, a clear-thinking person starts with ontology, then on to cosmology, epistemology, etc. as they examine or reexamine their religious beliefs, including any spirit-related phenomena they may have witnessed.

Philosophy comes first, even for those who don't actually think about it. Newcomers to religious thought arrive with basic assumptions about reality and their own minds, already accepted. Not that the assumptions can't evolve. Dyed in the wool materialists tend to avoid any consideration of theistic beliefs, but many others are ultimately dissatisfied with the religious section of their personal philosophy, and are searching for alternative explanations they can feel good about.

An interesting philosophical question is - what attracts people to religion in large numbers? Is it some innate push by people to fill a void in their mental make up? Or, is it a universal pull of spirits on our minds, an open invitation? I prefer the latter explanation. I note that people who think deeply enough, tend to arrive in mystical territory sooner or later. - CW
The central question of human existence is not why we are here, but rather why we behave the way we do - http://onhumanaffairs.blogspot.com/

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